The End of Time [Spoilers]

[Captain Seafort]

Overall, I think the whole thing was doing well up until Gallifrey itself showed up. I've said several times that the series needs to bin the entire Time War. It was a decent idea originally, and worked well initially, but it's got to the stage where it's causing the programme serious problems, most obviously in the last series finale. The overuse of the Daleks exacerbates the problem.

As I concept I think the return of the Time Lords was a good move, despite adding to the constant building of threats. The flaw was in a) making them the major threat the Doctor was trying to stop at the end of the War, which contradicts the entire theme of the last few years, along with a few explicit statements and b) sending them back into the time lock. What could have been but the start of an entirely new theme of the Doctor having to deal with various new nasties escaping with them (the Daleks being the first and foremost) instead got swept away with the reset button.

[kostmayer]

The Time War was a great story plot IMO. The back-story added to Ecclestone's Doctor greatly. It just got overdone.

And the Timelords didn't need to be evil to be adversaries for the Doctor. They already had a rocky relationship, and Ecclestone and Tennants Doctor did break a few time laws. And whatever his reasons were, I doubt the Timelords would have been too happy with the Doctor wiping out the whole race.

[Nutso]

Could've really done without "I have to stop the Time Lords because they became evil." I'd believe he would stop the Time Lords because their return would destroy the Earth. He has a chance to bring his people back from the dead, undo his role in their deaths, or lose the human race forever? Now that's a choice. Restore my people and lose his beloved humans forever? Or forever be alone? He killed them in the Time War because they became evil. Lame. I liked it better when I thought he killed the Dalek,s and the Time Lords died as a consequence of ending the war.

I would prefer if the Doctor died in that chamber, but I guess RTD needed to pay homage to all the things he's done for NuWho.... The chamber was really dramatic and well done. Guess RTD needed closure.

What's the deal with the new Doctor spitting on his Tardis controls? Was it a tribute to Timothy Dalton's spitting?

Do you guys have any guesses for who the mystery woman is?

[Captain Seafort]

And the Timelords didn't need to be evil to be adversaries for the Doctor. They already had a rocky relationship, and Ecclestone and Tennants Doctor did break a few time laws. And whatever his reasons were, I doubt the Timelords would have been too happy with the Doctor wiping out the whole race.

Absolutely. Indeed, the impression of the Time Lords given throughout the post-Time War series has been the most positive they've ever had - the bunch of introspective, arrogant, non-interventionist twerps we always knew had transformed into the ultimate good guys, going head-to-head with the Daleks for the sake of every being that ever had or would exist, and going down fighting even before the Doctor wiped them out in order to stop the Daleks. It's almost out of character for them.

Could've really done without "I have to stop the Time Lords because they became evil." I'd believe he would stop the Time Lords because their return would destroy the Earth. He has a chance to bring his people back from the dead, undo his role in their deaths, or lose the human race forever? Now that's a choice. Restore my people and lose his beloved humans forever? Or forever be alone? He killed them in the Time War because they became evil. Lame. I liked it better when I thought he killed the Dalek,s and the Time Lords died as a consequence of ending the war.

No. It might have been marginally better, but the fundamental flaw of the episode was sending the Time Lords back at all. We've seen that happen time and again with the Daleks, and it's was one of the main problems with "Journey's End". After hitting reset button after reset button over the last five years it's time to break the cycle once and for all and bring the adversaries of the Time War back into reality.

[Nutso]

And the Timelords didn't need to be evil to be adversaries for the Doctor. They already had a rocky relationship, and Ecclestone and Tennants Doctor did break a few time laws. And whatever his reasons were, I doubt the Timelords would have been too happy with the Doctor wiping out the whole race.

Absolutely. Indeed, the impression of the Time Lords given throughout the post-Time War series has been the most positive they've ever had - the bunch of introspective, arrogant, non-interventionist twerps we always knew had transformed into the ultimate good guys, going head-to-head with the Daleks for the sake of every being that ever had or would exist, and going down fighting even before the Doctor wiped them out in order to stop the Daleks. It's almost out of character for them.

Could've really done without "I have to stop the Time Lords because they became evil." I'd believe he would stop the Time Lords because their return would destroy the Earth. He has a chance to bring his people back from the dead, undo his role in their deaths, or lose the human race forever? Now that's a choice. Restore my people and lose his beloved humans forever? Or forever be alone? He killed them in the Time War because they became evil. Lame. I liked it better when I thought he killed the Dalek,s and the Time Lords died as a consequence of ending the war.

No. It might have been marginally better, but the fundamental flaw of the episode was sending the Time Lords back at all. We've seen that happen time and again with the Daleks, and it's was one of the main problems with "Journey's End". After hitting reset button after reset button over the last five years it's time to break the cycle once and for all and bring the adversaries of the Time War back into reality.

Maybe that's what Moffat will do?

[Captain Seafort]

Maybe that's what Moffat will do?

Possibly. I hope so, and I have at least some confidence that he won't make things worse, given that Moffat has been one of the consistently better writers of the recent series.

The way I'd do it would be to bring back the Time Lords and Gallifrey mid-series (which would be the best way to provide a shock, given that the main enemy usually only turns up in the last couple of episodes), and have the council fracture between Lord President Bond's "wipe out the universe" bunch, and a more moderate bunch wanting to withdraw into their previous isolationist stance, with the latter adopting the Doctor as a de facto leader. The final episodes of that series could see the defeat of the "wipe out the universe" brigade, only for the Doctor's supposed allies to demand that he too return to Gallifrey. Cue madcap escape, and the Doctor takes off in his old banger just like the old days. The next few series after that would therefore have him running from his own people (again), and running into various unsavoury things that escaped the Time War with them.

[Captain Seafort]

On a slightly different note:

I would prefer if the Doctor died in that chamber, but I guess RTD needed to pay homage to all the things he's done for NuWho.... The chamber was really dramatic and well done.

Absolutely. If they wanted to to TWoK, they should at least have gone the whole hog and had a similar exchange between the Doctor and Wilf immediately before him collapsing and regenerating.

Guess RTD needed to do his quarter of an hour of self-congratulatory BS.

Fixed. SG hit the nail on the head with that. What's more the pity is that the individual scenes were actually quite good. If it had been a Time Lord-enforced regeneration it might even have made sense.

Do you guys have any guesses for who the mystery woman is?

Susan, Romana, Jenny, the Doctor's mum, the Doctor's wife, the White Guardian... Take your pick, they've all been suggested somewhere or other.

[kostmayer]

Don't know about Star Wars, but the bit with the missiles chasing them reminded me of the shuttle chase in V.

[Captain Seafort]

Oh it was Star Wars alright - they couldn't have made it any more obvious by having the Doctor call Wilf and the conker "Luke" and "Han". RTD even refers to him as Luke Skywalker in DW Confidential.

[colmquinn]

Maybe that's what Moffat will do?

Hopefully they'll do to RTD what they did to karen Travers in Sw universe - "what last five years? I'm a timelord I just went back and did wibbly wobbly stuff and made it happen but not matter in this reality"

[Graham Kennedy]

Believe me, bad continuity simply isn't an issue in Doctor Who. This isn't like Star Trek. They've NEVER considered themselves to be all that strongly bound by continuity. They are perfectly happy to declare something to be totally utterly impossible in one episode, only to then do the exact opposite ten episodes later. In fact this is a fine example - how many times did they paint the Doctor as the last of the Time Lords? Yet suddenly there's the Master. How many times did they destroy the Daleks completely? Yet they pop up as needed. How many times did they say the destruction of Galifrey was "time locked" and unchangeable? And yet the just unlocked it with a little technobabble. We were told that it was impossible to jump universes... and then push this button and you can do it whenever you like.

If they want Galifrey to come back then the polarity of something will be reversed, and it will come back. If they want the Time Lords who come back to be good then there will be a secret society who take over and reform them as they emerge, or... well whatever it takes. For better or worse, that's just how Doctor Who works.

[kostmayer]

Maybe instead of "Geronimo", the next Doctors catchphrase should be "Inconceivable!".

The Master I can forgive, he was hiding the same way the Doctor hid. Though I think they effed up his return.

I'm sick to death of seeing the Daleks though. If they really wanted the Daleks and Timelords back they should have just figured a way of undoing what the Doctor did (what the hell did he do?) that wiped them all out. Ressurecting them and wiping them out all over again is just annoying, and it diminishes the Daleks as a threat.

[Graham Kennedy]

Maybe instead of "Geronimo", the next Doctors catchphrase should be "Inconceivable!".

The Master I can forgive, he was hiding the same way the Doctor hid. Though I think they effed up his return.

I'm sick to death of seeing the Daleks though. If they really wanted the Daleks and Timelords back they should have just figured a way of undoing what the Doctor did (what the hell did he do?) that wiped them all out. Ressurecting them and wiping them out all over again is just annoying, and it diminishes the Daleks as a threat.

The trouble is that the Daleks are too powerful to have around. They've been established as a force that can take on the Time Lords and win, or at least not get instantly stomped flat. Given that the Time Lords are the next best thing to GODS, it makes the Daleks too badass to have around as an ongoing enemy. They'd just wipe everyone else out.

They should have made the Daleks much weaker - still powerful, but along the lines of the Sontarans. Give them an enemy of similar strength that they spend most of their time fighting in a more or less stalemated war that's lasted ages and ages. Then in some time periods you can have the Daleks with an upper hand, and a threat to other species, and at others they'd have their hands too full to be a threat to anybody. But in any case you'd be taking on individual Daleks, or maybe a ship, or a single fleet. No the whole species!

Not that this is a remotely original idea - it's basically how the Sontarans were depicted in old Trek, and the Daleks in a stalemate with an equal foe was done with the Movellans. But they were good ideas!

I suspect that what happened was that in the beginning they thought "We're doing all new Who here, we want to clearly separate ourselves from the old series. So we won't use the Daleks, and we won't have the Time Lords. Let's say they wiped one another out." Then they couldn't resist introducing just one Dalek, as a big uber bad. They probably intended to leave it at that, I'd guess.

Unfortunately the episode Dalek proved to be both brilliantly made and wildly popular. So they just had to keep bringing them back...

It's what I said before. They just don't care that much about continuity.

[kostmayer]

Aye, but that episode was so brilliant because there was only one Dalek. And it was enough to make the Doctor fill his pants.

They should stick to creating new storylines. Such as finding themselves stranded on an alien planet, only to discover that this time they actually are in a quarry in Wales.

[colmquinn]

Such as finding themselves stranded on an alien planet, only to discover that this time they actually are in a quarry in Wales.