Defiance of the defiant

[Captain Seafort]

Yes, a cloak that is completely nullified by the hodgepodge addition of one or two gas sensors to a torpedo is a good and superior system.

Wrong. A cloak that can be defeated by the addition of specialised sensors to torpedoes, but allows the firing ship to fire while cloaked, is indeed superior to a cloak that requires a ship to decloak before firing.

If your definition of an effective system of concealment requires it to be complete and flawless, then by your definition the submarines of the world wars were utterly useless as weapons of war.

[Black Jesus]

Romulan cloaks--considered such a threat to the Federation that Starfleet Intelligence sends a captain to obtain an example. Requires a sensor net powered by 20 starships to be detected.

Federation cloaks--a technology that the Klingons and the Romulans couldn't get to function but is sophisticated enough that the Romulans send a ship to locate a 12 year old example of it, which is later used and functions aboard another ship.

Klingon cloaks--defeated by a retiring communications officer onboard a ship about to be decommissioned with the potpourri addition of a couple of gas sensors installed, in part, by an octogenarian physician.

[Captain Seafort]

Romulan cloaks--considered such a threat to the Federation that Starfleet Intelligence sends a captain to obtain an example.

And can be detected by normal ships sensors whenever it moves, with no modifications required.

Requires a sensor net powered by 20 starships to be detected.

Seventy years after the incident in question.

Federation cloaks--a technology that the Klingons and the Romulans couldn't get to function but is sophisticated enough that the Romulans send a ship to locate a 12 year old example of it, which is later used and functions aboard another ship.

Sixty years after the incident in question, and the Federation couldn't get it to work properly either - or have you forgotten the bit about the thing causing an explosion on the Pegasus, and the crew being unable to shut it down (either because it malfunctioned or because they were dead)?

Klingon cloaks--defeated by a retiring communications officer onboard a ship about to be decommissioned with the potpourri addition of a couple of gas sensors installed, in part, by an octogenarian physician.

And which went undetected while it was sat right under the hull of a ship, had knocked the E-A silly without reply, and was doing the same to the most modern and powerful ship in Starfleet. Moreover, how exactly to you expect any cloaked ship to survive without either venting plasma or radiating through the cloak, given conservation of energy.

[Mikey]

Romulan cloaks--considered such a threat to the Federation that Starfleet Intelligence sends a captain to obtain an example. Requires a sensor net powered by 20 starships to be detected.

- and which require the vessel to de-cloak to fire.

Federation cloaks--a technology that the Klingons and the Romulans couldn't get to function but is sophisticated enough that the Romulans send a ship to locate a 12 year old example of it, which is later used and functions aboard another ship.

- and which never made it out of R&D, so that's academic.

Klingon cloaks--defeated by a retiring communications officer onboard a ship about to be decommissioned with the potpourri addition of a couple of gas sensors installed, in part, by an octogenarian physician.

- and which the big E couldn't defeat - only the modded torpedo itself was able to find it at short range - and which allowed the cloaked ship to remain cloaked while firing.

[stitch626]

It should be noted that this cloak was (to our knowledge) the only cloak of its kind and other Klingon cloaks were nowhere near as good. In STIII the bop was detected.

[Praeothmin]

It should be noted that this cloak was (to our knowledge) the only cloak of its kind and other Klingon cloaks were nowhere near as good. In STIII the bop was detected.

Not clearly by sensors, it was seen as some sort of "ghost image".
It was seen when it started to decloak because the Enterprise was on "camera-mode" and looking at the planet it was orbiting.
If they hadn't seen the strange "predator-effect" on the stars, they would have been none the wiser...

[Sonic Glitch]

It should be noted that this cloak was (to our knowledge) the only cloak of its kind and other Klingon cloaks were nowhere near as good. In STIII the bop was detected.

Not clearly by sensors, it was seen as some sort of "ghost image".
It was seen when it started to decloak because the Enterprise was on "camera-mode" and looking at the planet it was orbiting.
If they hadn't seen the strange "predator-effect" on the stars, they would have been none the wiser...

If you're cloaking screen which is supposed to make you invisible creates a highly visible distortion effect that can be seen on visual light sensors (or whatever the realtime camera feeds are), there's a problem.

[Praeothmin]

It should be noted that this cloak was (to our knowledge) the only cloak of its kind and other Klingon cloaks were nowhere near as good. In STIII the bop was detected.

Not clearly by sensors, it was seen as some sort of "ghost image".
It was seen when it started to decloak because the Enterprise was on "camera-mode" and looking at the planet it was orbiting.
If they hadn't seen the strange "predator-effect" on the stars, they would have been none the wiser...

If you're cloaking screen which is supposed to make you invisible creates a highly visible distortion effect that can be seen on visual light sensors (or whatever the realtime camera feeds are), there's a problem.

It wasn't "highly visible", it was more of a "we happened to look in that direction when we thought we saw some distortion" moment.
I agree, it wasn't perfect, but it wasn't worse then the Romulans, and if it had been that easy to defeat, then the BoP in ST V would have been detected a lot sooner while it was coming in under cloak.
Instead, it only appeared on sensors when it decloaked...

[Captain Seafort]

if it had been that easy to defeat, then the BoP in ST V would have been detected a lot sooner while it was coming in under cloak.

No it wouldn't have - the BoP got to within sensor range before it cloaked in the first place. Sybok's space hippies were too busy gawping at the planet to notice.

[Black Jesus]

It was stated that we were talking about up until Nemesis, not up until Chang.


"And can be detected by normal ships sensors whenever it moves, with no modifications required."

That was BEFORE Starfleet Intelligence sent Kirk to get a working example. After the Romulans had improved their cloaking technology, after Balance of Terror. See: The Enterprise Incident.

"Seventy years after the incident in question."

Doesn't matter, you said, "Up until Nemesis." Redemption happened well before Nemesis.


"Sixty years after the incident in question, and the Federation couldn't get it to work properly either - or have you forgotten the bit about the thing causing an explosion on the Pegasus, and the crew being unable to shut it down (either because it malfunctioned or because they were dead)?"

Have you forgotten that it worked after the explosion, and after 12 years of sitting inside an asteroid, exposed to space? It was a technology the Klingons and the Romulans couldn't get to work right but the Federation could. No one perfected the interphasic cloak until the Federation did.


"And which went undetected while it was sat right under the hull of a ship, had knocked the E-A silly without reply, and was doing the same to the most modern and powerful ship in Starfleet. Moreover, how exactly to you expect any cloaked ship to survive without either venting plasma or radiating through the cloak, given conservation of energy."


No one knows how long Chang's ship was underneath the Enterprise-A before it was detected by firing on Kronos-1, it could've been one minute or it could've been sitting there for eight hours. Over Khitomer, all ships were fluid. But you're saying that a surge of neutron radiation or a leaky catalytic convertor that brought the captain up to the bridge in the middle of the night is a positive and an undetectable aspect of the cloak? Or that a leaky exhaust system is a plus? The Romulan warbird in Face of the Enemy had no problems with plasma venting or radiation when the Enterprise-D, which was "the most modern and powerful ship in Starfleet," was right next to it, and was only tracked when a nullification core was purposefully misaligned.



"- and which never made it out of R&D, so that's academic."


Only that it was field tested and proven and ultimately had better results than Klingon or Romulan examples that were stated in canon. Otherwise you're right.


"- and which the big E couldn't defeat - only the modded torpedo itself was able to find it at short range - and which allowed the cloaked ship to remain cloaked while firing."

Doesn't negate my previous statement whatsoever.

[stitch626]

and which allowed the cloaked ship to remain cloaked while firing

Not entirely... there was a flicker every time they fired, which may or may not have been detectable.

Which brings up another question: why didn't the E-A (and later the Excelsior) fire phasers at the location the torp appears?

[Mark]

An immidiete couse change would have rendered that moot. The ship would have been in constant motion to produce that spread pattern.

[Mikey]

Black Jesus - I'm begging you: please use the quote function of the board, 'cause I'm going buggy trying to read that. Anyway, I'll just respond to the bits which referenced me:

Only that it was field tested and proven and ultimately had better results than Klingon or Romulan examples that were stated in canon. Otherwise you're right.

Better results? That's conjectural at best and fantastic at worse. The original project embedded itself in an asteroid, and then was destroyed during the retrieval attempt. There is absolutely, positively, no way to know how it would have operated in the field.

Doesn't negate my previous statement whatsoever.

Let's tally... one is detectable, and disallows the cloaked ship to fire. The other is detectable, and allows the cloaked ship to fire. Hmmm....

[Mark]

One thing I never understood. WHY can't the damned ship fire? Is there not enough power to launch some torps? I would imagine that would be so minimal that a generator could supply that power. If its just a matter of giving away your position, a good first strike and you don't NEED to be cloaked anymore.

[McAvoy]

I would say that the launching of the torpedoes disrupts the cloak itself. Though I like the idea that when a ship cloaks, systems are powered down, and some even turned off, to minimize sensors detected power signatures.