Why Didn't Nog Assume Command Of The Valient?

[Captain Seafort]

What better way to train the best than to subject them to real life missions?

These guys are the best. It would be pointless to send them patrolling alpha centuri.

They're cadets. Good cadets but still inexperienced. While sending them off on real life missions is a good idea, staging those missions on a hostile frontier is not - send them somewhere safe until they've graduated, then send them to the front line. And don't give them a top-of-the-line warship that would be better used if it were given to a proper crew.

[Enkidu]

I read somewhere quite recently that the episode's author, Ron D Moore, had to decided to use some obscure 19th Century US naval regulation about field promotions in a time of war been valid, even in the presence of a officer holding a full commission, instead of more modern naval practice, where the "proper" officer should take charge.
It was a necessary plot device for the story to work, which doesn't really stand up to close examination. One of my pet peeves is if they where really so gifted, they should have realized that joyriding around inexperienced and under crewed in one of the Federation's very, very, few true warships was childish and irresponsible almost beyond belief.

[Captain Seafort]

I think that was one of the points of the episode - that people can be intelligent, skilled, gifted and still be complete idiots. Their esprit de corps was so strong that it overrode common sense, that they believed that they were unbeatable. That arrogance killed them.

[Thorin]

Thorin, there are like five things wrong in your statement. First of all we never saw the original captain so how could you possibly know how many pips he has? The war started after the ship left and it was never in the Gamma quadrent. And the Admiral may have prefered being called captain. Admirals can get away with minor rule bending(if it is a rule) because they have the rank to do it.

Okay that was only 3, but still, its a lot for this kind of situation.

Fair enough to the first one, I've not seen it for a while (think I'm getting various episodes muddled up), but the last one is pushing it. An admiral who likes getting called captain for kicks? Memory Alpha says that there were actually 7 officers on board, and 35 cadets, which at least seems reasonable for an elite groups of cadet going on tactical missions with experienced officers.

[Captain Seafort]

Fair enough to the first one, I've not seen it for a while (think I'm getting various episodes muddled up), but the last one is pushing it. An admiral who likes getting called captain for kicks? Memory Alpha says that there were actually 7 officers on board, and 35 cadets, which at least seems reasonable for an elite groups of cadet going on tactical missions with experienced officers.

The concept of taking out a starship manned by cadets overseen by real officers is a good one, to give them experience of running a ship for real rather than just in a simulator. I don't think they were going on missions though - just having a poke round the Federation seeing the sights, much as the E-nil was doing in TWOK. The problems I have are with the execution. What were they doing in one of Starfleet's few proper warships when the Federation was on the brink of war and so should have had every warship on active service with a trained crew? What were they doing so close to enemy territory when Starfleet was planning on triggering a war?

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Thorin, there are like five things wrong in your statement. First of all we never saw the original captain so how could you possibly know how many pips he has? The war started after the ship left and it was never in the Gamma quadrent. And the Admiral may have prefered being called captain. Admirals can get away with minor rule bending(if it is a rule) because they have the rank to do it.

Okay that was only 3, but still, its a lot for this kind of situation.

Fair enough to the first one, I've not seen it for a while (think I'm getting various episodes muddled up), but the last one is pushing it. An admiral who likes getting called captain for kicks? Memory Alpha says that there were actually 7 officers on board, and 35 cadets, which at least seems reasonable for an elite groups of cadet going on tactical missions with experienced officers.

Well Dukat still prefered being called a Gul over Legate because it was more personal, I believe was his reason. Who would you feel more comfortable with, a guy you call captain, or a guy you call admiral? And it could be one of those admirals who regrets accepting the promotion.

[Thorin]

So we know he's called Captain, and you're trying to argue he's actually an admiral just for the point of it?

[Captain Seafort]

From the episode script:

WATTERS
(tolerant)
"Sir" is correct, ensign. I was
given a battlefield commission and
command of this vessel by the late
Captain Ramirez. Using that
authority, I've also commissioned
and promoted other members of Red
Squad as needed.

WATTERS
We were transiting the Kepla
Sector when the war broke out.
As you probably know, a Dominion
invasion force swept through that
sector on the first day.

NOG
So you were caught behind enemy
lines?

WATTERS
Correct. We were trying to make
our way back to Federation-held
space when we encountered a
Cardassian battle cruiser near
El-Gatark. It was our first taste
of combat.
(beat)
In the first fifteen minutes, four
regular officers were killed and
three others were critically
wounded... including Captain
Ramirez.

NOG
Is that when you took command?

WATTERS
No. When I got to the bridge, the
captain was in pretty bad shape
but he was lucid and refused to
go to Sickbay. We'd lost main
power and were adrift, but the
Cardassian cruiser was no better
off. So it was a race against the
clock -- the ship that got main
power back on-line first would
have a decisive advantage.
(beat)
The captain was... amazing. He
directed the entire damage control
effort with a punctured lung and
massive internal injuries.
(quiet)
He was a great man.

Given that when Watters refers to "the captain" as a position the "c" is lower-case, but when he gives Ramirez's title it's capitalised, it's likely that his rank was Captain as well as his position.

[Thorin]

Yeah! Eat that Chakat!

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Yeah! Eat that Chakat!

Dude, take a chill pill. If you don't got a pill use a chill strip, it'll desolve right in your mouth.

I'm just trying to give an in-universe explanation. And unless there's something I don't know about there's no way to tell when someone is talking in caps. And from what I'm reading that doesn't prove a thing anyway.

[Captain Seafort]

I'm with Thorin on this one - given that the script clearly differentiates between "the captain" (the CO) and "Captain Ramirez" (a particular officer) through capitalisation, it strongly implies that the captain was a Captain. Given that the Valiant only had a few dozen cadets aboard and the E-nil, carrying hundreds, was commanded by a Captain on her training cruise, it would be more likely (the script aside) that "the captain" was a Commander or Lt Commander, and reffered to as "captain" out of courtesy and/or tradition.

[Enkidu]

I can only think of one instance, temporary appointments aside, where an officer other than a Captain or higher commands a vessel. It was a DS9 episode where a Lt Cmdr was in charge of a Nebula, no less!
I also think that realistically vessels captained by Commanders, Lieutenant Commanders, and even Lieutenants would outnumber those commanded by Captains. One of those niggling little quirks.....

[Captain Seafort]

Sisko commanded the Defiant while he was still a Commander, and Dax and Worf commanded it at various points as Lt Commanders. For a ship that small, it makes sense not to give it to a full Captain. For comparison, in the RN during WW2 rule-of-thumb was that a Lt Commander commanded a destroyer, a Commander commanded a cruiser, and a Captain commanded a battleship or aircraft carrier

[Enkidu]

I agree, but in DS9 the Defiant was used almost like a runabout, with no set captain. I think even Nerys (sp?) had a go. When they meet other ships, they all seem to have, um, Captain captains, even humble Oberths.
I think anything smaller than an Excelsior, (in the TNG era, anyway) could get by without a commander of Captain rank.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

I'm with Thorin on this one - given that the script clearly differentiates between "the captain" (the CO) and "Captain Ramirez" (a particular officer) through capitalisation, it strongly implies that the captain was a Captain. Given that the Valiant only had a few dozen cadets aboard and the E-nil, carrying hundreds, was commanded by a Captain on her training cruise, it would be more likely (the script aside) that "the captain" was a Commander or Lt Commander, and reffered to as "captain" out of courtesy and/or tradition.

That's just proper grammar. Besides the script isn't canon, what happens on-screen is. And just because he is the captain doesn't mean he is a captain.

I'm just trying to explain why some snot-nosed brat got the rank of a captain. The fact is that a captain cannot give someone a field promotion of captain, so the logical explination is that someone on the ship was a flag officer.