Why did Nemesis lose to Insurrection???

[Praeothmin]

Oh, it probably didn't help that Nemesis would have been an awful as just a TV episode. As a movie it sucked harder than Cygnus X-1

I personnaly think ST: Generations and Insurrection were far worse then Nemesis.
Generations because it felt just like a long, big screen TNG episode, and Insurrection because of the awful, awful plot that made even less sense the Nemesis.

[Tyyr]

Insurrection and Generations were both pretty bad too, not arguing that. I just think Nemesis sucked even harder. In large part do to the vampire clone and super warship that turned out to be amazingly crappy.

[Praeothmin]

Insurrection and Generations were both pretty bad too, not arguing that. I just think Nemesis sucked even harder. In large part do to the vampire clone and super warship that turned out to be amazingly crappy.

I have to disagree.
The "Super Weapon" was crappy, the ship itself was pretty nice.
It kicked the arse of the E-E and two new Romulan vessels, and was able to fire while cloaked, was pretty maneuverable for its size, its shields were pretty strong, and I liked the look it had...

[Tyyr]

It's been gone over before in other threads but if it was so super why was it even a fight? The Ent-E should have been put down in much the same way the Scimitar dealt with the Romulan ships.

[Praeothmin]

It's been gone over before in other threads but if it was so super why was it even a fight? The Ent-E should have been put down in much the same way the Scimitar dealt with the Romulan ships.

Well, in the discussions I read, Shinzon wanted to "look Picard in the eyes before killing him", i.e., he just wanted to disable the ship to brag about how much better then Picard he was, or something like that.
Because if he'd wanted to destroy the E-E, all he had to do was to continue firing at it once the E-E no longer had any weapons, and voilà...

[Tyyr]

In the interests of not derailing the thread I'll just say I disagree. I'd happily take it up in another thread but not this one.

[Praeothmin]

In the interests of not derailing the thread I'll just say I disagree. I'd happily take it up in another thread but not this one.

No need to, since we both agree we disagree...

[Teaos]

It's been gone over before in other threads but if it was so super why was it even a fight? The Ent-E should have been put down in much the same way the Scimitar dealt with the Romulan ships.

Yeah its been gone over before and proved before that they were holding back against the E-E due to... you know, not wanting to kill Picard, the only guy that could save Shinzon (crappy plot point I agree but still fact)

[LaughingCheese]

It's been gone over before in other threads but if it was so super why was it even a fight? The Ent-E should have been put down in much the same way the Scimitar dealt with the Romulan ships.

Yeah its been gone over before and proved before that they were holding back against the E-E due to... you know, not wanting to kill Picard, the only guy that could save Shinzon (crappy plot point I agree but still fact)

Why is it a crappy plot point?

Its a plausible motive.

What might be a crappy plot point would be that the Scimitar should be able to disable key systems with ease.

[Aaron]

Why is it a crappy plot point?

Its a plausible motive.

What might be a crappy plot point would be that the Scimitar should be able to disable key systems with ease.

It wouldn't be if Shinzon hadn't spent an entire day dicking around having Picard over for dinner and "getting to know him".

[Tsukiyumi]

I don't know; I always like to get to know someone before I f*ck them.

[Nickswitz]

I don't know; I always like to get to know someone before I f*ck them.

Isn't it the opposite usually, you don't try to get to know them, so then you won't feel so bad when you kill them.

I guess Shinzon just had no soul.

[Mikey]

I don't know; I always like to get to know someone before I f*ck them.

Well, Shinzon did it right - quiet romantic dinner, dim lighting...

[Tsukiyumi]

I don't know; I always like to get to know someone before I f*ck them.

Well, Shinzon did it right - quiet romantic dinner, dim lighting...

Yeah, the second date was a bit awkward, though...

[Bryan Moore]

I think from a story standpoint, Insurrection had fewer plot holes and bits of "Huh?" that were as major as those in Nemesis. In many ways, from a story standpoint, it was quintessential Trek: Trying to find a peaceful solution to someone's violent foul-up, turning to violence if needed, but staying true to the ideals of exploration, etc. Nemesis became sort of a big shoot'em up by the end, and turned off a lot of fans with that. In many ways I'd say Insurrection had the better story (yet failed as a movie), but Nemesis had more as a big budget movie and less of a long episode feel.