Ship of the Week: Corellian Gunship (DP20 Frigate)

[Aaron]

So you think a smaller, more compact ship wouldn't cost less than a 1600 meter Star Destroyer

I said the cost was innacurrate, as are all WEG stats. I did not say that a gunboat would cost more than an ISD. All we actually have to go on is the ANH quote from Luke saying they could almost buy a ship for 10,000. Kindly don't put words in my mouth.

Concession accepted on the other points.

[SuperSaiyaMan12]

So you think a smaller, more compact ship wouldn't cost less than a 1600 meter Star Destroyer

I said the cost was innacurrate, as are all WEG stats. I did not say that a gunboat would cost more than an ISD. All we actually have to go on is the ANH quote from Luke saying they could almost buy a ship for 10,000. Kindly don't put words in my mouth.

Concession accepted on the other points.

I didn't make *any* concession. ICS is C-Canon like the WEG Source Books. Calculations that don't match the actual feats displayed mean they are purposely used to increase the power of a technology.

For example, the ICS:AOTC rated the quad-turbolasers of the Acclamator-class Assault Ship at 200 Gigatons. That is enough firepower, with one shot, to not only destroy New York City, but parts of New York State and New Jersey. Yet in each and every comic representation of a turbolaser blast, we get a much lower yield. In Legacy, for example, the turbolaser shot from a Pellaeon-class Star Destroyer, it was only able to destroy the Ossus Temple itself and the surrounding area. Or the Taris BDZ performed by the Leviathan in KOTOR I. We get no 200 Gigaton Explosions whenever a turbolaser blast hit. Hence, the Calcs are *wrong*.

[mlsnoopy]

Actually the DSI was built over a period of a few years, the one you see at the end of ROTS is a prototype. As where several others that crop up in the EU between ROTS and ANH.

What the f..... So every couple of years the Empire decided to build a DS.

[Aaron]

I didn't make *any* concession. ICS is C-Canon like the WEG Source Books. Calculations that don't match the actual feats displayed mean they are purposely used to increase the power of a technology.

Did you respond to the other points? No, you didn't. That is called a concession. And if you are going to bring up the tired old argument that Dr. Saxton deliberatly inflated the figures than I want to see some proff that he did so.

For example, the ICS:AOTC rated the quad-turbolasers of the Acclamator-class Assault Ship at 200 Gigatons. That is enough firepower, with one shot, to not only destroy New York City, but parts of New York State and New Jersey. Yet in each and every comic representation of a turbolaser blast, we get a much lower yield. In Legacy, for example, the turbolaser shot from a Pellaeon-class Star Destroyer, it was only able to destroy the Ossus Temple itself and the surrounding area. Or the Taris BDZ performed by the Leviathan in KOTOR I. We get no 200 Gigaton Explosions whenever a turbolaser blast hit. Hence, the Calcs are *wrong*.

Are you familiar with the concept of power settings?

[Aaron]

What the f..... So every couple of years the Empire decided to build a DS.

I was wondering when you'd show up. Your obviously not familair with the concept of a prototype or a technology demonstrator.

[SuperSaiyaMan12]

Did you respond to the other points? No, you didn't. That is called a concession. And if you are going to bring up the tired old argument that Dr. Saxton deliberatly inflated the figures than I want to see some proff that he did so.

I *did* respond. All my responses are in the last post of the first page.

Saxton has had a record of inflating the power levels of weapons for Star Wars. Take the Slave I's main guns for example-he gave them 600 megatons of firepower. Yet when they were used on Kamino, we got less than 25 tons of firepower.

Are you familiar with the concept of power settings?

Why use power settings in a BDZ operation like Taris? Or in any planetary bombardment? That's a cop out there-in where ships would use maximum firepower, if there is no explosion as large as the one I describe fore 200 gigatons, you ask 'are you familiar with the concept of power settings?'. I am, and for maximum, I doubt that it matters.

[Aaron]

Why use power settings in a BDZ operation like Taris? Or in any planetary bombardment? That's a cop out there-in where ships would use maximum firepower, if there is no explosion as large as the one I describe fore 200 gigatons, you ask 'are you familiar with the concept of power settings?'. I am, and for maximum, I doubt that it matters.

To.Conserve.Power. A BDZ uses up most of a ships fuel reserves.

Just because you can do something does not mean that you must do something. Anyways, the figures in the ICS do not contradict what we see in the films so your argument has no basis.

[SuperSaiyaMan12]

Why use power settings in a BDZ operation like Taris? Or in any planetary bombardment? That's a cop out there-in where ships would use maximum firepower, if there is no explosion as large as the one I describe fore 200 gigatons, you ask 'are you familiar with the concept of power settings?'. I am, and for maximum, I doubt that it matters.

To.Conserve.Power. A BDZ uses up most of a ships fuel reserves.

Just because you can do something does not mean that you must do something. Anyways, the figures in the ICS do not contradict what we see in the films so your argument has no basis.

Since we have no *feats* in the films. We never see a planet bombarded in the movies due to Lucas's stupidity on military.

And what is so important about the asteroid bashing in ESB, I ask?

Taris Bombardment, by the way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIM0ReXh ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQegn6Gt ... re=related

[Captain Seafort]

*snip BS*

A couple of mistakes you're making:

1) You fail to take the dial-a-yield nature of Wars weapons into account - if you only want to destroy a temple, why waste energy on a full-power shot.

2) You misunderstand the nature of canon - to use the movies to disprove the ICS you must demonstrate that they specifically contradict them, not merely that a feat described in the ICS does not occur in the movies.

There are also a couple of feats that would be impossible without the energy-generation capabilities described in the ICS

1) Base Delta Zero. This is not merely orbital bombardment - it involves melting the crust of a planet to a substantial depth, a feat that requires hundreds of thousands of gigatons, minimum.

2) The Death Star. The Alderaan blast, scaled to the size of an ISD, would be about half a trillion gigatons. Given that the DS can fire one such blast per day, this would give an ISD the firepower of over 5 million gigatons per second, and an Acclamator over 5 thousand gigatons per second - almost twice the firepower attributed to it by the ICS.

[SuperSaiyaMan12]

*snip BS*

A couple of mistakes you're making:

1) You fail to take the dial-a-yield nature of Wars weapons into account - if you only want to destroy a temple, why waste energy on a full-power shot.

2) You misunderstand the nature of canon - to use the movies to disprove the ICS you must demonstrate that they specifically contradict them, not merely that a feat described in the ICS does not occur in the movies.

I already brought up the Slave I calculation blunder.

There are also a couple of feats that would be impossible without the energy-generation capabilities described in the ICS

1) Base Delta Zero. This is not merely orbital bombardment - it involves melting the crust of a planet to a substantial depth, a feat that requires hundreds of thousands of gigatons, minimum.

2) The Death Star. The Alderaan blast, scaled to the size of an ISD, would be about half a trillion gigatons. Given that the DS can fire one such blast per day, this would give an ISD the firepower of over 5 million gigatons per second, and an Acclamator over 5 thousand gigatons per second - almost twice the firepower attributed to it by the ICS.

Scaling? Are you going by Han Solo's offhanded quote about 'It'd take a thousand starships with more firepower...'?

[Captain Seafort]

Taris Bombardment, by the way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIM0ReXh ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQegn6Gt ... re=related

Ah - to estimate the firepower involved in that, you must know the heat capacity and density of those skyscrapers construction materials. Do share these tidbits with the rest of us.

[Aaron]

Since we have no *feats* in the films. We never see a planet bombarded in the movies due to Lucas's stupidity on military.

And? I don't see a problem with that. The OT is a bush war FFS. If the calculations in the ICS specifiaclly contradicted the movies (hint: the max firepower is lower than what we see) than you would have an argument.

And what is so important about the asteroid bashing in ESB, I ask?

Because it provides a baseline for firepower calculations.

Taris Bombardment, by the way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIM0ReXh ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQegn6Gt ... re=related

Yeah, thanks. I have the games.

If your going to continue to dispute the ICS can you come up with something new? So far we've got the usual dribble from RSA and the SFJ clowns, all of which are refuted by watching the films.

[Captain Seafort]

I already brought up the Slave I calculation blunder.

Which "blunder" would that be? The fact that Boba Fett wasn't firing full power shots less than a dozens yards from his father?

Scaling? Are you going by Han Solo's offhanded quote about 'It'd take a thousand starships with more firepower...'?

No, I'm assuming the power output of the DS, ISD and Accy scale linearly with their volume and using the lower limit calculated from the Alderaan blast (10^38 J) to calculate the output of the smaller ships.

[SuperSaiyaMan12]

And? I don't see a problem with that. The OT is a bush war FFS. If the calculations in the ICS specifiaclly contradicted the movies (hint: the max firepower is lower than what we see) than you would have an argument.

Which scene from the movies actually does demonstrate hundreds of gigatons worth of firepower without using scaling, hyperbole, etc?

Yeah, thanks. I have the games.

If your going to continue to dispute the ICS can you come up with something new? So far we've got the usual dribble from RSA and the SFJ clowns, all of which are refuted by watching the films.

RSA and SFJ? Never heard of them.

How about you provide a feat, without scaling, using dialogue that sounds like hyperbole, etc. showing the maximum firepower of one turbolaser turret?

[SuperSaiyaMan12]

Which "blunder" would that be? The fact that Boba Fett wasn't firing full power shots less than a dozens yards from his father?

Do we know if they were full powered or not? We don't see Boba putting the yield lower, we just see him firing.

No, I'm assuming the power output of the DS, ISD and Accy scale linearly with their volume and using the lower limit calculated from the Alderaan blast (10^38 J) to calculate the output of the smaller ships.

Is that Calculation provided from a source in a novel or something? Like Death Star? Something out of a Source Book?