Borg vs KE (again)

[stitch626]

We regularly see people hit with phasers and get knocked backwards by them. Even shotguns and heavy machine guns don't have enough energy to toss a human backwards from a hit.

I was hit with a .380 in the left/back of my torso. I was diving for cover at the time, and it had enough force to alter my "flight path". If it would have hit me center mass while on my feet, the concussive force would have easily been enough to stagger me, if not knock me off balance and off my feet.

Thats because you had a vest trying to stop that bullet within a few millimeters which means it had a huge impulse, whereas having it enter your body, the impulse is much lower.

Not saying this has anything to do with KE imparted, just giving the physics explanation.

[Deepcrush]

Tyyr, please read the posts from both myself and Mark. It will give you a better understanding of the KE point.

[Deepcrush]

Thats because you had a vest trying to stop that bullet within a few millimeters which means it had a huge impulse, whereas having it enter your body, the impulse is much lower.

Most bullets tumble inside the body and when they impact soft targets such as people, they cause a ripple effect where the body becomes fluid and absorbs much of the impact. However if the round does not pass through the target, and sometimes even when it does, it will throw a person backwards.

[Captain Seafort]

For 1) the energy would "disappear" because of being used to counter the energy holding the atoms together (strong and weak nuclear forces).

If you're that stupid then get out of the fucking thread. Energy cannot "disappear" - it can only be converted from one form to another. That's primary-school level physics.

For 2) into the continuum that the matter went to.

Kindly provide the equations you used to calculate the energy requirements of this process, and explain what enters our continuum in order to balance the mass-energy you're shunting into the other one.

[Mark]

Actually Stitch, modern ballistics are designed to trigger that effect. A regular "ball" round may very well pass through the body with "minimal" damage (aside from having a piece of metel pass through you). Most modern ballistics are designed to maximise damage via KE.

Take a hydroshock round for example.

When the round is fired it expands to a "flatter" surface, causing a "wave" of trauma from the force of the impact which basically "liquifies" your innards. The demo I saw had a round pass through a big water bottle in slow mo. The bullet hits, and started a "wave" that effected the whole "body", transferring the force of motion INTO the body more effectively.

Now, if energy weapons had the same force, the effects we see would be different. Packing crates would move under repeated hits, and not just barely scortch, bulkheads would dent from the impact, and so forth.

[stitch626]

Thats because you had a vest trying to stop that bullet within a few millimeters which means it had a huge impulse, whereas having it enter your body, the impulse is much lower.

Most bullets tumble inside the body and when they impact soft targets such as people, they cause a ripple effect where the body becomes fluid and absorbs much of the impact. However if the round does not pass through the target, and sometimes even when it does, it will throw a person backwards.

Guess my edit wasn't fast enough.

Yeah, I'm not arguing that (mostly cause I've never seen anyone shot), I was only telling Mark why it happens, especially with a vest.

If you're that stupid then get out of the f***ing thread. Energy cannot "disappear" - it can only be converted from one form to another. That's primary-school level physics.

You seem to not get the concept of air quotes.

What would happen is the energy would be converted into light and some heat and some radiation of many forms (all over the EM spectrum likely), which we see every time a person is vaporized.

Kindly provide the equations you used to calculate the energy requirements of this process, and explain what enters our continuum in order to balance the mass-energy you're shunting into the other one.

You know such equation don't exist. But the very fact that in order for the human body to exist takes more energy than a small arms weapon puts out would suggest that changing the nature of existence would take an equal or greater amount of energy.

[Tyyr]

Take it you've never seen a man hit when the bullet doesn't just pass through the body. A 7.62mm round hitting a grown man in the chest plate will easily pick you up off your feet and send you back a few.

Physics says otherwise. Take a solid steel mass of 80kg on a frictionless surface and shoot it with a .30-06 from about a foot away, assuming every last bit of energy is transfered the mass will be accelerated to 0.133 m/s. The problem of course is the human body isn't perfectly solid. It's squishy. Energy is wasted (from a get him moving standpoint) in deforming that squishy sack of jelly that is not getting used to accelerate it in the direction you want. Bullets are rarely fired from a foot away. Friction is a bitch. Real life if you shot a guy mid jump and the bullet didn't pass through he might land 3 or 4 inches behind where he jumped from and that's being generous.

I was hit with a .380 in the left/back of my torso. I was diving for cover at the time, and it had enough force to alter my "flight path". If it would have hit me center mass while on my feet, the concussive force would have easily been enough to stagger me, if not knock me off balance and off my feet.

Same scenario as above, perfect frictionless energy transfer you accelerate to 0.023m/s. Your flight path, from the bullet at least, would have been altered an inch, maybe inch and a half.

People don't go flying because they're shot. There's simply not enough energy even in a perfect case to throw someone who's hit. People stagger due to pain and reflex, not because the bullet is pushing you around. And yes, I realize that in the phaser debate it could very well be the people being shot having a reflexive action that sends them backwards but it happens a hell of a lot.

[Lighthawk]

In support of Tyyr, Mythbusters tackled the bullet tossing people myth, and found it to be bull. They couldn't even get a .50 cal to move a human weighted target more than an inch or so even when they did stop the round from penetrating.

[Captain Seafort]

What would happen is the energy would be converted into light and some heat and some radiation of many forms (all over the EM spectrum likely), which we see every time a person is vaporized.

Correct. The result would look something like this.

You know such equation don't exist.

Concession accepted.

[Deepcrush]

With any due respect I should have to Tyyr's physics or mythbusters, I've seen people thrown by rounds with my own four eyes. Mythbusters failing at something and Tyyr's misunderstanding aside, real life trumps tv.

As to a .50 round, if Mythbusters couldn't get someone to fly using one, then I have no reason to believe they were really trying.

[Tyyr]

With any due respect I should have to Tyyr's physics or mythbusters, I've seen people thrown by rounds with my own four eyes. Mythbusters failing at something and Tyyr's misunderstanding aside, real life trumps tv.

As to a .50 round, if Mythbusters couldn't get someone to fly using one, then I have no reason to believe they were really trying.

Deep, Physics is real life. It's incredibly simple, if you shoot someone with a .50cal and they go flying from the impact then your ass goes flying too. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The fact that you stay standing just fine when firing a rifle should tell you that the bullet isn't tossing someone around.

[Captain Seafort]

Deep, Physics is real life. It's incredibly simple, if you shoot someone with a .50cal and they go flying from the impact then your ass goes flying too.

The big differences between firing a fifty cal and being hit by one are that a) the firer is holding a weapon that weighs almost as much as he does and b) he's probably lying prone and leaning into the weapon in line with it (assuming it isn't vehicle-mounted), making it easier to absorb the recoil. The individual hit, on the other hand, is probably standing up and a lot lighter, and therefore much easier to knock off his feet at the very least.

[Mikey]

Actually Stitch, modern ballistics are designed to trigger that effect. A regular "ball" round may very well pass through the body with "minimal" damage (aside from having a piece of metel pass through you). Most modern ballistics are designed to maximise damage via KE.

Take a hydroshock round for example.

When the round is fired it expands to a "flatter" surface, causing a "wave" of trauma from the force of the impact which basically "liquifies" your innards. The demo I saw had a round pass through a big water bottle in slow mo. The bullet hits, and started a "wave" that effected the whole "body", transferring the force of motion INTO the body more effectively.

Now, if energy weapons had the same force, the effects we see would be different. Packing crates would move under repeated hits, and not just barely scortch, bulkheads would dent from the impact, and so forth.

We're starting to get into ballistics territory that has no application to the "v. phasers" discussion. The fact that fragmenting or controlled expansion rounds transfer more energy internal to the target, because they don't pass through, is really irrelevant to the total energy transferred by the bullet in its entire contact time with the target - which is more germane to the discussion.

Again, on the topic of hydrostatic shock: yes, it's a perfectly true phenomenon that hitting someone in the gut with a supersonic round can cause non-local fluid injuries, such as cerebral hemmorhage, lung dysfunction, even aneurysms. However, as phasers don't cause traditional impact damage in any event - at least not on anything larger than the subatomic level - it's really a tangential topic.

[Deepcrush]

I think Seafort covered it well enough so I'll defer a response of my own for his.

[Captain Seafort]

Speaking of which, in your experience how often are fifty cals used in a dismounted role? I can't imagine anyone wanting to lug one around, no matter how effective it is.