What if the Lakota-type had been approved for production?

Sonic Glitch · Post by **Sonic Glitch** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:51 pm

Mikey wrote:Why not? Because now you have two engineering crews working simultaneously on one ship - one for repair, one for upfit - when presumably one of those crews could be repairing another ship. Resources may not be limited in the traditional sense, but every base will only have a finite amount of ship-building (or ship-fixing) materials. The Frankenstein fleet was a bad analogy - that was an (ugly) attempt to push out new ships using a fraction of the resources that "normal" new ships would require.

I think he's saying have the repair crews do the upfit. "Well, the type VIII phaser control/power relays/firing mechanism is destroyed. We had plans to upgrade them to X. Since we have to replace it now anyway, let's replace them with the upgraded components" OR "torpedo systems are damaged? we planned to replace those anyway." -- and then go and replace it with the planned upgrade.

Post by **Mikey** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:53 pm

In that case, you're not saving any upfit time... in the absolute best-case scenario, you might save 30%.

Panzer · Post by **Panzer** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:14 pm

MMI is correct at what I'm getting at.

You also have the ships crew available to help with the work, so you wouldn't need 2 crews. They need to know how to fix/maintain them later, so what better way to learn than by helping install them?

In that case, you're not saving any upfit time... in the absolute best-case scenario, you might save 30%.

This isn't about refitting them fully to Lakota standards, only what can be done in same time as the repairs will take. They can finish the full upgrades when time allows...

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:48 pm

Panzer, you're not getting the point of how this works. Your enemy is beating at the gates. Not just every month but every minute you have a ship off the line is trouble. If you're going to do things on the quick foot then it has to be done while the ship is at sea. You can't judge the UFP to the USN of WWII. In WWII there was no one on earth to match the US production rates. That isn't the case with the Dominion war.

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:23 pm

Deepcrush wrote:You can't judge the UFP to the USN of WWII. In WWII there was no one on earth to match the US production rates. That isn't the case with the Dominion war.

Moreover, the Feds were also regularly in serious danger of being overrun, whereas the US never was.

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:30 pm

Agreed! The UFP was badly out of position with the war until their victory at the Battle of DS9 (DW).

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:34 pm

Deepcrush wrote:Agreed! The UFP was badly out of position with the war until their victory at the Battle of DS9 (DW).

Even after 2nd DS9 they weren't exactly in a great position - look at the loss of Betazed for example.

Panzer · Post by **Panzer** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:37 pm

Not just every month but every minute you have a ship off the line is trouble.

Seriously... the ship is already off the line because it's blown to hell. If an upgrade can be completed IN THE SAME TIME AS THE REPAIR, why not make it more effective so the next time it's in harms way it can better protect itself or blow sh*t up? Saves hulls and lives that way...

Not to mention that sticking some of these upgrades into random Excelsiors will make the enemy more wary of ALL Excelsior's since they don't know which ones will have been upgraded until they start firing.

You can't judge the UFP to the USN of WWII. In WWII there was no one on earth to match the US production rates. That isn't the case with the Dominion war.
Moreover, the Feds were also regularly in serious danger of being overrun, whereas the US never was.

So in February 1942, when Japan was still unstopable by our forces, the US knew it would never be over run and could afford to take the Tennessee offline for repairs/upgrades? No... but they did anyways because it was the best thing to do to make the ship more combat effective. Which is what I'm getting at with all this.

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:40 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:Even after 2nd DS9 they weren't exactly in a great position - look at the loss of Betazed for example.

The loss of Betazed was due to a fleet that was out of position. Not the UFP as a whole. Since the Dominion made no gain of it and the war stayed in stalemate. I'm guessing that Betazed was about as helpful as Gallipoli.

Mark · Post by **Mark** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:48 pm

Was Betazed ever liberated, or just turned back over whrn the Dominion pulled out. I can't remember.........

Sonic Glitch · Post by **Sonic Glitch** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:51 pm

In a book, yes it was. Star Trek TNG: The Battle for Betazed is about the liberation of betazed.

Post by **Mikey** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:55 pm

Hmmm. I figured they just ran into Lwaxanna and begged the UFP to take it back.

Mark · Post by **Mark** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:59 pm

Mikey wrote:Hmmm. I figured they just ran into Lwaxanna and begged the UFP to take it back.

That would have done it. Especially without the wig

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:09 pm

Panzer wrote:Seriously... the ship is already off the line because it's blown to hell. If an upgrade can be completed IN THE SAME TIME AS THE REPAIR, why not make it more effective so the next time it's in harms way it can better protect itself or blow sh*t up? Saves hulls and lives that way...

It's not just time that's the issue - it's resources and man-hours, as has already been pointed out. If you can improve the ship while not excessively increasing either of those (for example by replacing wrecked phasers with a more efficient model, or torp launchers with an upgraded version) fair enough. If not then fix it and get it back out fighting ASAP.

So in February 1942, when Japan was still unstopable by our forces, the US knew it would never be over run and could afford to take the Tennessee offline for repairs/upgrades?

Repairs to the Tennessee were finished by February '42 - she only went in to dock for her big refit after Midway, when the IJN had been reduced to a shambles, and the allies were on the offensive in the Solomons. Thanks for proving my point

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:14 pm

Deepcrush wrote:The loss of Betazed was due to a fleet that was out of position. Not the UFP as a whole. Since the Dominion made no gain of it and the war stayed in stalemate.

Nonetheless, the fact that the Dominion was in a position to take a world near the heart of the Federation shows that the Fed's situation was still somewhat precarious. If it had been something they could have shrugged off it wouldn't have pushed Sisko to resume his machinations to draw the Romulans in. I'm not saying it put the Feds in as serious a position as they were in before 2nd DS9, but it certainly wasn't something they could ignore

What if the Lakota-type had been approved for production?

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