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Thorin wrote:

Captain Seafort wrote:To nitpick - the E-D's shield frequency was just that, a frequency not a security code.

Your point? The fact that for each shot there is a 1/10,000 chance of the enemy getting a shot through is far too high. It's absurdly high.

The frequency in question was 257.4 MHz. Source. What that means isn't exactly clear - it probably refers to the shield cycling on and off 257.4 million times a second. What's important is that it isn't a code, and therefore can't be described as a "one in a hundred chnace of a weapon getting through" or similar. If the frequency and phase angle aren't precisely matched then the shield will still block the phaser beam

Captain Seafort wrote: The frequency in question was 257.4 MHz. Source. What that means isn't exactly clear - it probably refers to the shield cycling on and off 257.4 million times a second.

I agree, something like that, at least. It's also possible that a shield bubble is a huge net/tanglement of EM radiation/energy, meaning it could be the frequency of that. Still, hardly matters in this context.

What's important is that it isn't a code, and therefore can't be described as a "one in a hundred chnace of a weapon getting through" or similar. If the frequency and phase angle aren't precisely matched then the shield will still block the phaser beam

To allow any sort of energy beam, transporter, projectile (etc etc) through a shield you only need the shield frequency. As this shield frequency is only made of four digits, an enemy ship could change the frequency for every single projectile/beam until one gets through the shield. Thus there is a 1/10000 chance of something getting through - or even been guessed.

There are an infinite number of possible combinations. Take the E-D's 257.4 MHz for example - 257.42 MHz wouldn't get through, nor would 257.38 MHz. The frequency might go up into the GHz range or down to the kHz range. We don't know, and until we do, one way or the other, we can't treat a frequency as a code.

Captain Seafort wrote:There are an infinite number of possible combinations. Take the E-D's 257.4 MHz for example - 257.42 MHz wouldn't get through, nor would 257.38 MHz. The frequency might go up into the GHz range or down to the kHz range. We don't know, and until we do, one way or the other, we can't treat a frequency as a code.

Ahh, I see what you're saying - but the point that almost all numbers are like that (3/4/5 digits) would really say that 4 digits is the most you can have (or rather the most Starfleet would use). On various other times we've had something to take a specific frequency (with around 4 digits) to do more damage/take something out/transport through etc etc. I admit, that wasn't the most completely secure example, but the point stands that on nearly all times there are only 3/4/5 digits - which to me, at least - points to Starfleet's inability [incompetance/technological limits] to use more digits, and SF's enemies, I'm sure, would pick up on this, giving a chance of 1/10,000 of getting the correct frequencies.

Oh, I'm not saying that Starfleet has anything resembling computer security - the five-digit prefix codes and, more importantly, the remote login that can't be disabled are bloody stupid. My point is that the shield frequency displayed in "Generations" isn't an example of this - the display gave the frequency in MHz, and so might display kHz, GHz, or whatever was appropriate at the time.

Captain Seafort wrote:Oh, I'm not saying that Starfleet has anything resembling computer security - the five-digit prefix codes and, more importantly, the remote login that can't be disabled are bloody stupid. My point is that the shield frequency displayed in "Generations" isn't an example of this - the display gave the frequency in MHz, and so might display kHz, GHz, or whatever was appropriate at the time.

That's true, but it's much easier to guess something with 4 digits than with twenty - the enemy must have some knowledge of the range of shield frequencies.

Thorin wrote:That's true, but it's much easier to guess something with 4 digits than with twenty - the enemy must have some knowledge of the range of shield frequencies.

What do you mean by that? We've never seen anyone guess a shield frequency - the only times we've seen them bypassed were "Generations" (thanks to Geordi's bugged Visor), ST2 and "The Wounded" (when the prefix code was used to take take control of the computer, and when O'Brien took a chance based on Starfleet proceedure).

Captain Seafort wrote:

Thorin wrote:That's true, but it's much easier to guess something with 4 digits than with twenty - the enemy must have some knowledge of the range of shield frequencies.

What do you mean by that? We've never seen anyone guess a shield frequency - the only times we've seen them bypassed were "Generations" (thanks to Geordi's bugged Visor), ST2 and "The Wounded" (when the prefix code was used to take take control of the computer, and when O'Brien took a chance based on Starfleet proceedure).

Frequencies normally only have 4 digits - not just on shields but on many things. If you know that something has a possible frequency range of 1 - 1000 Mhz, then you could make a guess on what the frequency may be - as it would normally only have 4 digits. Thus it could be 1.002, 34.72, 841.0... If you just go through them til you find one that works - you're sorted. The thing is that they don't use 20 digits, so that it could be 12.94511431234... And it would take a long, long time to find the correct frequency. If you only use 4 digits it's much easier to find.

Even in the MHz range, four digits gives a lot more than 10,000 combinations - 257.4 MHz, 25.74 MHz, and 2.574 MHz are all different numbers. In addition you must also consider frequencies outside the MHz band - 257.4 kHz, or 257.4 GHz, or 257.4 THz. We don't know the full range of shield frequencies, and so cannot use them as a method of determining their effectiveness. The fact that we've never seen any of the major AQ powers use matching shield frequencies as a tactic during a battle (the Duras' espionage aside) strongly suggests that it isn't effective.

I have a question/observation. It's been said that Starfleet predominantly uses frequencies described in 4 digits, and an example given of the set {1.002, 34.72, 841.0...}. But that's not a set of numbers that would ever come under discussion together - they all have differing amounts of significant digits. How and why would any self-respecting engineer, or even amateur scientist, describe two examples of something with a figure accurate to 1/1000 in on example, and only to 1/10 in another?

Captain Seafort wrote:Even in the MHz range, four digits gives a lot more than 10,000 combinations - 257.4 MHz, 25.74 MHz, and 2.574 MHz are all different numbers.

The 1/10,000 figure is actually for 0.1 Mhz - 999.9 Mhz, with steps of 0.1 Mhz. Which, looking at the actual screen capture of the E-D's frequency looks right - as if it is between those figures.

In addition you must also consider frequencies outside the MHz band - 257.4 kHz, or 257.4 GHz, or 257.4 THz. We don't know the full range of shield frequencies, and so cannot use them as a method of determining their effectiveness.

We don't know the full range, but K/M/G/T are the most mentioned ones, assuming following a rule of 0.1 Xhz steps, it gives an maximum chance of 1/40,000.

The fact that we've never seen any of the major AQ powers use matching shield frequencies as a tactic during a battle (the Duras' espionage aside) strongly suggests that it isn't effective.

Just because something isn't used doesn't mean it isn't effective - I'm sure something you'll strongly agree with. Because Starfleet has no tactics, does that mean tactics are not effective? Because Starfleet has a below par intelligence, does that mean intelligence isn't effective? In the ST world, a lack of something definitely doesn't mean it isn't effective

Mikey - any number with 4 significant figures is accurate to 1/1000. I don't see where accuracy came into this, though. All those example numbers you mentioned have the same number of significant digits - not differing ones as you said. However, I think I should rephrase for the Galaxy Class example - they are all to one decimal place, and a mazimum of 4 significant figures. This gives a 1/10,000 chance of getting a shot through - while this may be quite high requiring a weapon projectile/beam to test each one, a transporter signal could presumably get through this in a fraction of the time.

What I meant was that the derivation of those figures would necessarily lead to numbers all having the same amount of decimal places, in order to have similar accuracies and frame of reference. It is needless, and misleading, if I compare multiplication products as "2x2=4" and "2x3=6.000." Obviously this is an overly simplistic example, but you get the idea.

If in fact the examples given originally didn't really occur, and the figures were all given to the 1/10 place, then never mind.

Rochey wrote:Seafort got there before me, but I'm bored.

Eosphoros wrote:Federations ships can be controlled from just about any terminal with access to the main computer if you have the appropriate authorization.

1: That's incredibly stupid, as anyone with clearance could sieze the entire ship from just about anywhere.
2: As Seafort pointed out, that is centralisation. Modern ships don't have all their systems routed through a single central computer.

Last week I was watching few episodes of Voyager on Spike or SciFI... it was amazing how many times this happened:

"Someone is accessing **** control"
"Stop them!"
"I can't, they've locked me out"

It got old after only about 3 episodes.

That is common place on fed ships. Its what makes their lives so much fun. If they have C-4 in every panel, why not just blow the panel! That would teach them to mess with starfleets finest. (I use the term 'finest' very loosly of course.)

My hat's off to Captain Seafort and Rochey. You shred my argument to pieces. I'm a smart child and I know when to back off.