War of the Week: I

[Deepcrush]

No its not you, the site has been weird today.

[Captain Seafort]

While the image of the German army is of a well equipped mechanized force, the reality is that was just the spearhead of the blitzkrieg. For every well equiped panzergrenadier riding in a modern halftrack APC, there where hundreds of ordinary soldiers matching along, behind horse-drawn artillery, with weapons that may well be have looted from conquered and annexed nations. Their industry was never able to keep pace with Hitler's ambition.

They also had equipment problems, particularly in 1939-41. Their tanks were pretty poor compared to allied designs (notably the Char B1 and the Matilda). Their A Tk guns were useless against said allied tanks. Their medium bombers were decent, but verging on obsolesence with the exception of the Ju-88. The Stuka was terrifying against troops, but a death trap against fighters. Indeed, the only area in which German equipment was deomonstrably superior were their machine guns, and even then, they had serious supply problems due to excessively complex manufacturing techniques.

[Mikey]

The only thing the Challenger truly has far above the Abrams is its rate of fuel consumption. That gas turbine is a $&$@#$ pig! The Challenger;s armor is legendary, but the Abrams uses the same type of ceramic composite, and it's details are still classified.

The SAS is certainly the top special forces unit in the world. Iranian embassy... 8 seconds. 'Nuff said. As far as who I'd pick between the US and the UK, well, that's adifferent story.

probably because we're the first 'Western' nation in the world.

What?! Do you take into consideration that the culture that first settled there was NOT the culture that subsequently took hold? That the thriving culture there was IMPORTED from various parts of the continent? I agreed with your point about the SAS, but this statement is just ludicrous.

I'm not saying that every single Cardassian is put into military training

No. Teaos said that.

As far as the blitzkrieg and German WWII armor in general, what made them work was the speed of the panzers and the combined-forces nature of the attacks. Plus, the huge and largely forgotten advantage that German armor had over Allied armor in the earlier parts of the war - two-way radios. As individual units, the Panzers only real advantage over Allied armor was the aforementioned speed. And the fact that Poland was still using main forces of horseback cavalry, but I'm not talking about my cousins today.

[Thorin]

What?! Do you take into consideration that the culture that first settled there was NOT the culture that subsequently took hold? That the thriving culture there was IMPORTED from various parts of the continent? I agreed with your point about the SAS, but this statement is just ludicrous.

I don't even get what you're trying to say. Just because things were imported doesn't change the location. The British Empire is the biggest superpower (relatively) that has ever existed. London was the first city to exceed 1 million people. Whether I take into consideration how it happened - through means that you could write several novels about (and which probably exist), is irrelevant, but the fact remains that Britain was the first country to achieve 'Western' status - if you can call it that. In nearly all political, economic, industrial and militaristic terms, it was lightyears ahead of every other country.

[Mikey]

But it patently wasn't the first nation in Western Europe, or the Western Hemisphere - I don't know which you meant. I'm not knocking England - they allowed a small fraction of my family to flee the Holocaust, as long as they agreed to change their name. All I'm knocking is your comment that England was the first Western nation, which is false. I might as well claim that the US was the first Western nation.

[Teaos]

Fighting over who's special forces are the best is totally impossible. To much national pride comes into it.

Also I didnt say every Cardassian is trained for the military. I said their culture is heavily influenced by it and they are far more suited for it than the average alien.

Oh and my vote goes to challenger for best tank.

[Mikey]

Fighting over who's special forces are the best is totally impossible. To much national pride comes into it.

I don't know... I'm not English, but I'd need a heck of a lot of proof if somebody tried to convince me that there were better than the SAS out there...

[Teaos]

Well it depends on what you class it as. During the Vietnam war and now the NZ and Australia SAS were consdiered the best trackers and hit squads in the world. Thats due to their superior training in that enviroment with a wide range of landscape desert/jungle/bush/urban all with in a few hundred kms of each other and training with natives which other were to proud to do.

But in pure smash and grab I'd give it to the British. For all I know the Americans could be better at them at something to.

[Mikey]

Well, there are certainly a number of things that the American special forces are better at than anyone else, but I believe that's due as much as to numbers and equipment as anything else.

I'll repeat: Iranian embassy... 8 seconds... no terrorists left alive, no hostages killed.

[Thorin]

But it patently wasn't the first nation in Western Europe, or the Western Hemisphere - I don't know which you meant. I'm not knocking England - they allowed a small fraction of my family to flee the Holocaust, as long as they agreed to change their name. All I'm knocking is your comment that England was the first Western nation, which is false. I might as well claim that the US was the first Western nation.

Hold on - I don't think you've got this. 'Western' country is a generic term for a country that isn't 3rd world. Something above everything else - my point was that the British was the first 'Western' country in that, not in literal map position, but of advancement. It was the first country to have a level of advancement in military, industrial, imperialistic and economic that could not be rivalled. That was my point - I apologise for the use of the term 'western', though, as you've clearly never heard it used in this context.

Regarding the special forces again, the point is that the SAS is the benchmark, it's the special forces that has as good as trained every other special force in the world - either directly (such as the US' Delta Force) or indirectly via known techniques, or passing on of knowledge.

[Captain Seafort]

I'll repeat: Iranian embassy... 8 seconds... no terrorists left alive, no hostages killed.

Well, one survived, who was found hiding among the hostages while they were being sorted out afterwards.

To add to that you have to add the longest escape and evasion in SAS history - 178 km across the Syrian desert in six days in the middle of an unusually harsh winter. That is a truly remarkable feat of endurance.

[Mikey]

Sorry, Thorin - the use of that idiom isn't common in my part of the States. In that context, then you're absolutely correct.

[Deepcrush]

If you want to go with the best Heavy Combat and Special Tactics Unit. I would say ROK Marines, the White Tigers of South Korea.

[Granitehewer]

Been flicking through a bit of this forum, although only managed an iota.
It seems to me that someone is grossly overestimating the capabilities of the energy dampening weapon, yes it had initial impact at chin'toka and great psychological value (like the tanks at cambrai).
A ship endowed with a dampening weapon still has shields and a set number of armaments and targetting matrixes so if facing a fleet of vastly superior numbers, a great many breen vessels could still be lost, especially if the klingons are furiously aggressive, pay little heed to losses, and encourage any suicidal attacks for the sto'vo'khor glory.
The klingons could fight back, just the energy-dampened ones wouldn't be able to, but that wouldn't instantly be the entire fleet....
Some high ranking Klingon admirals go on irregular missions, paramilitary activities and skirmishes in minor vessels eg martok in the rotarran (once more unto the breach) and so whether negh'vars are lost, it does not neccessarily mean that a large proportion of klingon command are taken out.
Lastly do we have any cannonical indications of the relative sizes of cardassian and klingon space as all i have is non-cannon star trek starcharts and the ditl....

[Captain Seafort]

Been flicking through a bit of this forum, although only managed an iota, it seems to me that someone is grossly overestimating the capabilities of the energy dampening weapon, yes it had initial impact at chin'toka and great psychological value (someone at uni last year,related it to tanks at cambrai but think that its a poor relation at best)but a ship endowed with a dampening weapon still has shields and a set number of armaments and targetting matrixes so if facing a fleet of vastly superior numbers, a great many breen vessels could still be lost, especially if the klingons are furiously aggressive and pay little heed to losses, and encourage any suicidal attacks for the glory to be had in sto-vo'khor etc so the klingons could fight back really, just the energy-dampened ones wouldn't be able to, but that wouldn't instantly be the entire fleet....

1) Could you please use some sentences shorter than a paragraph? That makes my eyes hurt.

2) Sure, the EDW doesn't automatically equal the entire fleet being instantly disabled, but it does allow it to be disabled very quickly. While the Klingons could certainly do a good deal of damage (as the allies did at Chin'toka) the Breen would do far more, potentially destroying hundreds of ships for the loss of dozens.

Some high ranking Klingon admirals go on irregular missions, paramilitary activities and skirmishes in minor vessels eg martok in the rotarran (once more unto the breach) and so whether negh'vars are lost, it does not neccessarily mean that a large proportion of klingon command are taken out.

True, but some senior commanders will certainly be lost. The loss of the Negh'vars would probably be felt more tactically than for the loss of command and control.

Lastly do we have any cannonical indications of the relative sizes of cardassian and klingon space as all i have is non-cannon star trek starcharts and the ditl....

Klingon industrial superiority can be determined from "Way of the Warrior" - they expected to beat the Cardassians with only a third of their fleet, despite the mainstay ship of the Klingon fleet (the BoP) being weaker than the mainstay of the Cardassian fleet (the Galor). This implies that the Klingon force was larger than the total Cardie forces, and their total forces considerably so.