musings on the most famous of grudges

[Deepcrush]

I disagree, an idiot is just that, no matter who is around. One smart person would build a small ground army. So small that the other powers might not even notice it, then that person would have a massive advantage in the next war.

[Deepcrush]

I disagree, an idiot is just that, no matter who is around. One smart person would build a small ground army. So small that the other powers might not even notice it, then that person would have a massive advantage in the next war.

[Captain Seafort]

Idiot is a subjective word. If everyone around you is of the same intellegence you are not an idiot you are normal.

The Romulan Flag ship is ruffly the same size as the Galaxy yet it is no more powerful. The Klingons ships change strength so many times its hard to judge but they are usually not great either.

When I think of startrek I trey to keep my thoughts in their universe. It is pointless to judge them against us. Judge them against their enemies. Then you see that they are far from useless.

I've said it before and I'll probably say it again; just because everyone else is just as stupid does not make a stupid idea less stupid. The fact that the Federation has managed to survive the Cardassian Wars, the Klingon War, several Borg incursions and the Dominion War despite lacking anything resembling a professional military does not mean that their "no military" stance is a sensible one. Unless you've got the capability and the will to reduce every enemy-held planet to an uninhabitable ruin then you need an army to go down to the surface and wrest control from your opponent. Bombardment alone cannot win wars - only physical possession of territory can do that.

The Federation has managed to dodge the issue before because Starfleet's technological superiority allows them to control the space around the planet and either prevent a landing or cut off supplies to a landed force. They are unable to launch a serious counter offensive because they do not have the necessary equipment to do so - during the Dominion War they were forced to rely on the Klingons as assault troops, and were only saved from being overrun at AR-558 by uncharacteristic Jem'Hadar incompetence. Indeed, it's possible that the inconclusive end to the Cardassian War (demonstrated by the surrender of worlds on both sides of the border, rather than just Cardassian ones) was due to the Federation's inability to launch such an offensive.

[Sionnach Glic]

Idiot is a subjective word. If everyone around you is of the same intellegence you are not an idiot you are normal.

Okay, let me rephrase that:
'In reality, they are idiots.'

The Romulan Flag ship is ruffly the same size as the Galaxy yet it is no more powerful.

Because the Federation has a greater technology level. As I already said.

The Klingons ships change strength so many times its hard to judge but they are usually not great either.

Again, because of technology.

The Fedeation can take on warships from other races because their ships are more advanced technologicaly. Not because they utilise this technology inteligently. If they did then its likely that every single Federation ship we've ever seen being destroyed would have taken a fleet to take down. That is why the Federation is composed of morons.

When I think of startrek I trey to keep my thoughts in their universe.

As do I. Its called 'suspension of disbelief'.
This has no impact on the fact that they are morons.

It is pointless to judge them against us.

In what way is it pointless? Its rather pointless to debate wether a Galaxy class could take on a Galor, yet everyone here does this. Myself and you included.

Judge them against their enemies.

I do. I watch how they deal with, and react to, various problems, such as combat.
From this, I deduce that they are stupid.

Then you see that they are far from useless.

Merely because their enemies are even less competant than they are.

[Aaron]

Just think what would have happened if those two thousand Romulan troops had reached Vulcan and dug in into the capital city. Orbital bombardment would have been out of the question as the Vulcans would have crucified Starfleet in the Federation Council chambers. The only way to get them out would have been brutal house to house fighting and Starfleet would have taken massive losses. Conventional wisdom states that an attacker needs three to one advantage to carry the day and in an urban setting that goes up to six or seven to one.

If they had a professional army this wouldn't be so daunting as body armour and an armoured force to deploy on Vulcan woud limit the casualties. Even then they could expect to take 50% casualties, without these forces I figure their looking at 70%.

[Captain Seafort]

We had a long thread not so long ago debating whether the Romulans were stupid for thinking they could take and hold Vulcan with so few troops or whether the Feds were stupid for being so weak that the they could hold a planet with only 2000. I think it boiled down to a compromise that they could take and hold it long enough for reinforcements to arrive.

[Sionnach Glic]

I thought we agreed that they could only hold the capital city?

[Aaron]

Realistically the best the expediationary force could hope to accomplish is to hold down a portion of the capital and hold for reinforcements and hold the population hostage. Two thousand troops is too little to do much else. I mean look to WH40K as an example, when they take a planet they use thrty thousand troops as a minimum and some of their campaigns involve a million or more troops. And their weapons are far more powerful than Trek. Realistically to take the whole planet your probably going to need a million men of the kind seen in Trek who are almost exculsively light infantry.

[Captain Seafort]

I thought we agreed that they could only hold the capital city?

Hmm, I thought it was decided that their plan was to get in while the Feds didn't know what was happening (and with the cover of a diplomatic convoy given by Spock's fake message), secure key C3 centres, and hang on until reinforcements arrived. I assumed that meant planet-wide rather than just the capital.

Realistically the best the expediationary force could hope to accomplish is to hold down a portion of the capital and hold for reinforcements and hold the population hostage. Two thousand troops is too little to do much else. I mean look to WH40K as an example, when they take a planet they use thrty thousand troops as a minimum and some of their campaigns involve a million or more troops. And their weapons are far more powerful than Trek. Realistically to take the whole planet your probably going to need a million men of the kind seen in Trek who are almost exculsively light infantry.

But in Star Wars you can fight a full-scale galactic war with only three million men.

[Sionnach Glic]

I can't tell you how annoying I found Karen Travis' 'three million soldiers for a galactic war' thing.

Hmm, I thought it was decided that their plan was to get in while the Feds didn't know what was happening (and with the cover of a diplomatic convoy given by Spock's fake message), secure key C3 centres, and hang on until reinforcements arrived. I assumed that meant planet-wide rather than just the capital.

Two thousand would be almost impossible to hold a planet with. There would be entire continents the invaders would never even set foot in. Although, if the Vulcan's follow teh Federation's ridiculously over-centralised designs, then holding the planet might be possible,

[Aaron]

Hmm, I thought it was decided that their plan was to get in while the Feds didn't know what was happening (and with the cover of a diplomatic convoy given by Spock's fake message), secure key C3 centres, and hang on until reinforcements arrived. I assumed that meant planet-wide rather than just the capital.

The Romulans best hope is to concentrate their troops. If they split their numbers they make them vulnerable and easy pickings for any quick SF counterattack and any Vulcan insurgency that might develop.

But in Star Wars you can fight a full-scale galactic war with only three million men.

All I'll say to that is that Karen Traviss is retarded beyond measure and her work is an abortion.

[Captain Seafort]

Two thousand would be almost impossible to hold a planet with. There would be entire continents the invaders would never even set foot in. Although, if the Vulcan's follow teh Federation's ridiculously over-centralised designs, then holding the planet might be possible,

That's how I was thinking, based on the comparison I made in that thread with the Easter Rising. The Volunteers couldn't hope to hold the whole of Dublin, but they could seize key buildings and establish perimeters around them to completely disrupt the movement through the city. Similarly, if the Romulans seized communications centres, spaceports, military bases (if any), government buildings and the like they could effectively shut down Vulcan and, given that the planet is likely a major centre of Federation government, probably the entire sector.

[Sionnach Glic]

Good point there.
Althought the Easter Rising could have been done a bit better, it still points out how much disruption a small amount of troops can cause, and they weren't even trained military troops.

[Captain Seafort]

Good point there.
Althought the Easter Rising could have been done a bit better, it still points out how much disruption a small amount of troops can cause, and they weren't even trained military troops.

Exactly, and the Romulans would cause even more trouble because 1) Starfleet doesn't have 18 pdr field guns to flush them out and 2) they know reinforcements are on the way so they have an incentive to keep fighting if they're forced to abandon their HQ. The Rising would have continued a lot longer and been a lot bloodier if the secondary positions hadn't surrendered along with the GPO, since with the exception of St Stephen's Green they were strong positions with uncompromised perimeters.

[Sionnach Glic]

Indeed, the Romulans have the advantage of having an enemy with no concept of how to conduct a war.
Sadly, the 1916 rebels did not.