Fix the NX class

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Re: Fix the NX class

Post by Deepcrush »

Tiberius wrote:This would seem to suggest that we can assume nothing ever happens unless we see it happen.
No, we can assume something happened but we can NOT declare that said thing happened. Its a simple shift in statements.

"This happened in canon because of this" becomes "I believe this happened in canon because of this".

To stay out of trek so i'm not diving into your debate. In 40k-BFG. The Imperium was said to have lost the ability to build dedicated lance (high tech guns) ships and so they have to switch to lesser guns. But there are several examples of ship classes in the Imperium that are nothing but lances and they aren't old but newly built. So we have to guess at a lot of why they are there and how they are built.
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Re: Fix the NX class

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All the NX needs is a flame job and potentially some side pipes... then it would ROCK!
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Re: Fix the NX class

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Racing stripes?

I like British racing green but I understand if not everyone would want that color...
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Re: Fix the NX class

Post by Mikey »

Tiberius wrote: This would seem to suggest that we can assume nothing ever happens unless we see it happen.
No, it only "suggests" what it explicitly says - we can assume anything, but we cannot treat assumptions as canonical fact. EOS. Assumptions make great talking points, and certainly make it more enjoyable to be a dedicated viewer, but we can't treat them as anythign more than they are.
Jim wrote:All the NX needs is a flame job and potentially some side pipes... then it would ROCK!
Yeah, and ol-skool pop-up supercharger with butterfly valves! You know, to force the engine to intake more air... in outer space...
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Re: Fix the NX class

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Mikey wrote:Yeah, and ol-skool pop-up supercharger with butterfly valves! You know, to force the engine to intake more air... in outer space...
Actually... it would not be too difficult to make the nacelles look like side-pipes...
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Re: Fix the NX class

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Deepcrush wrote:
Tiberius wrote:This would seem to suggest that we can assume nothing ever happens unless we see it happen.
No, we can assume something happened but we can NOT declare that said thing happened. Its a simple shift in statements.

"This happened in canon because of this" becomes "I believe this happened in canon because of this".

To stay out of trek so i'm not diving into your debate. In 40k-BFG. The Imperium was said to have lost the ability to build dedicated lance (high tech guns) ships and so they have to switch to lesser guns. But there are several examples of ship classes in the Imperium that are nothing but lances and they aren't old but newly built. So we have to guess at a lot of why they are there and how they are built.
Well, I was responding to your comment where you agreed with Stitch where he said, "if we do not see/hear about it, it does not exist."

By this logic, Picard never went to the toilet, and keiko conceived molly without ever having sex.

It's fairly safe to say that these things happened. We can extrapolate them based on what we know.

We can assume something is for all intents and purposes canon if it would be ridiculous to have the Trek universe without it. So, just the same way that we can assume that it is canon that Picard goes to the toilet, we can also assume that there is a lineage of ship designs that span from the NX class to the Akira class. granted, that assumption is not as solid as the "Picard poops" assumption, but that's only because there are a great deal more variables. But it would be ridiculous to assume that Starfleet used the NX layout in the 2150s and then never considered that design again until the Akira class. So it is logical more plausible that there is a lineage that links the Akira to the NX class, and we just never saw it.

And given that there are many different classes of ships that have been mentioned but not seen, it is entirely possible that one of these classes fits into the NX?Akira design lineage.

Now, I'm not saying that I MUST be right.

However, I am saying that there is absolutely nothing in canon that shows that the idea of a lineage between the NX and Akira classes is impossible, and therefore any argument that the NX design is not suitable for the Enterprise cannot be supported.
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Re: Fix the NX class

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Tiberius wrote:Well, I was responding to your comment where you agreed with Stitch where he said, "if we do not see/hear about it, it does not exist."
Well that doesn't help you much since I never said that anyways. If you wish to direct a statement about something I said, then make sure I in fact said it. Its bad enough I have to remind the admins and mods of this simple issue often enough, I don't need to start having too remind the kids on the forum in addition. If you aren't going to be bothered to read what I type, don't bother to respond.
Tiberius wrote:By this logic, Picard never went to the toilet, and keiko conceived molly without ever having sex.
Minus the logic part because we've seen Picard come out of the bathroom a number of times, once drying his hands. Also, he's human and there for goes to the bathroom. What you can't say is if he went during a certain time during a certain episode since you didn't see him go. However we have seen him come out of the bathroom and there for can say that while not canon it is supported by canon. As to keiko, sex isn't the only way to have kids in the 24th so its up in the air. It can go anyway the writers like it to.
Tiberius wrote:It's fairly safe to say that these things happened. We can extrapolate them based on what we know.
Which is why I said before, several times, we take canon and what is supported by canon.

While none of your post is in fact meaningful in anyway, I've responded to the parts that concerned me and I'll leave the rest to someone else who's a part of the NX debate.
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Re: Fix the NX class

Post by Tiberius »

Deepcrush wrote:
Tiberius wrote:Well, I was responding to your comment where you agreed with Stitch where he said, "if we do not see/hear about it, it does not exist."
Well that doesn't help you much since I never said that anyways. If you wish to direct a statement about something I said, then make sure I in fact said it. Its bad enough I have to remind the admins and mods of this simple issue often enough, I don't need to start having too remind the kids on the forum in addition. If you aren't going to be bothered to read what I type, don't bother to respond.
Stitch said, "For Trek canon, if we do not see/hear about it, it does not exist."

You quoted this and said, "Stitch's comment here sums it up. I've had to point this out a number of times to a lot of people, Mod's included, but as Mikey as stated... If it is not in Canon then it cannot be treated as canon."

So yeah, you did say that.
Tiberius wrote:By this logic, Picard never went to the toilet, and keiko conceived molly without ever having sex.
Minus the logic part because we've seen Picard come out of the bathroom a number of times, once drying his hands. Also, he's human and there for goes to the bathroom. What you can't say is if he went during a certain time during a certain episode since you didn't see him go. However we have seen him come out of the bathroom and there for can say that while not canon it is supported by canon. As to keiko, sex isn't the only way to have kids in the 24th so its up in the air. It can go anyway the writers like it to.
How do you know Picard was going to the toilet?

And I think with the Keiko thing, are you really suggesting that a married couple wouldn't be having sex?
Tiberius wrote:It's fairly safe to say that these things happened. We can extrapolate them based on what we know.
Which is why I said before, several times, we take canon and what is supported by canon.
And I'm not arguing with that.

What I'm arguing against is the idea that we can dismiss something that doesn't contradict canon just because it isn't supported by canon. I'm of the opinion that it's safe to say that the most parsimonious explanation that doesn't contradict canon is the best.
While none of your post is in fact meaningful in anyway, I've responded to the parts that concerned me and I'll leave the rest to someone else who's a part of the NX debate.
Oh thanks. Very polite you are.
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Re: Fix the NX class

Post by Mikey »

I did in fact state that if something isn't canon, then we cannot correctly state that it is canon. This is a fact by which I stand, even in the example which you erroneously made above:
Tiberius wrote:So, just the same way that we can assume that it is canon that Picard goes to the toilet
No, you are absolutely incorrect. We can assume that Picard does go to the toilet, and we can be pretty secure in that conviction; but to say that we can assume something is canon is to completely misunderstand what the term "canon" means. To be canon, something must be shown onscreen; something cannot be assumed to be canon, as that completely abrogates what canon is.

Taking it as a given that you now perhaps understand what canon is, let's move on to the crux of how this example is a ridiculous analogy.
Tiberius wrote:we can also assume that there is a lineage of ship designs that span from the NX class to the Akira class.
How so? I mean technically, we can assume that some ships use magical interstellar unicorns instead of shuttlecraft, too; but in this conversation we had been talking (until the above statement) about assumptions being based logically on some canon basis. Your "Picard shits" assumption, while not canon, is logically based both on direct evidence (as Deep mentioned) and circumstantial observation (Picard is human, and humans shit.) There is no such either direct or circumstantial support for the second assumption.
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Re: Fix the NX class

Post by Tiberius »

Mikey wrote:I did in fact state that if something isn't canon, then we cannot correctly state that it is canon. This is a fact by which I stand, even in the example which you erroneously made above:
Tiberius wrote:So, just the same way that we can assume that it is canon that Picard goes to the toilet
No, you are absolutely incorrect. We can assume that Picard does go to the toilet, and we can be pretty secure in that conviction; but to say that we can assume something is canon is to completely misunderstand what the term "canon" means. To be canon, something must be shown onscreen; something cannot be assumed to be canon, as that completely abrogates what canon is.
And you are missing my point.

it is not canon that Picard goes to the toilet, because as you say, it is only canon if it is seen onscreen, and we never saw Picard going to the toilet on screen. However, we can look at the facts we DO know, and use them as a basis for concluding that Picard does, at fairly regular intervals, go to the toilet.

And this is my point.

If we can use canon information to reach the non canon conclusion that Picard poops, why can't we also use canon information to reach the non-canon conclusion that there is a lineage of starship designs that goes from the NX class to the Akira class?
Taking it as a given that you now perhaps understand what canon is, let's move on to the crux of how this example is a ridiculous analogy.
I have always been well aware what canon is, and I don't know where you got the idea that I was trying to pass off non canon as canon. Where did I say that it was canon that there was a lineage between the two?
Tiberius wrote:we can also assume that there is a lineage of ship designs that span from the NX class to the Akira class.
How so? I mean technically, we can assume that some ships use magical interstellar unicorns instead of shuttlecraft, too; but in this conversation we had been talking (until the above statement) about assumptions being based logically on some canon basis. Your "Picard shits" assumption, while not canon, is logically based both on direct evidence (as Deep mentioned) and circumstantial observation (Picard is human, and humans shit.) There is no such either direct or circumstantial support for the second assumption.
No evidence for a design lineage that links the NX class from the 2150s to the Akira class of the 2360s? Well, for a start, the very existence of the NX class and the Akira class indicates it. There are also other ship designs that have the "Warp nacelles attached to a saucer by booms and no engineering hull" layout, such as the Norway class, and possibly even the Miranda class and Defiant classes.

All of these are canon. And just as we use canon evidences to support the non-canon conclusion that Picard poops, we can use these canon evidences to support the non-canon conclusion that there is a design lineage that goes from the NX class to the Akira class.
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Re: Fix the NX class

Post by Mikey »

Tiberius wrote:And you are missing my point.

it is not canon that Picard goes to the toilet, because as you say, it is only canon if it is seen onscreen, and we never saw Picard going to the toilet on screen. However, we can look at the facts we DO know, and use them as a basis for concluding that Picard does, at fairly regular intervals, go to the toilet.

And this is my point.
How am I missing the point if this is exactly what I just said, with the addition of the caveat that we can't call that conclusion - no matter how logical - canon of itself?
Tiberius wrote:If we can use canon information to reach the non canon conclusion that Picard poops, why can't we also use canon information to reach the non-canon conclusion that there is a lineage of starship designs that goes from the NX class to the Akira class?
I answered this before you asked. Please read my previous post. If you can't, then I'll reiterate: there is canon evidence, both direct and circumstantial, to support the idea that Picard shits. There is no evidence for a continuous design lineage between the NX and the Akira; there is only evidence of the existence of both the NX and Akira. The other day, my son and another boy were playing tag at the park. The other boy tagged my son, and my son fell down. It would be irresponsible to accuse the other boy of pushing my son down without having observed such an act to happen, wouldn't it?
Tiberius wrote:I have always been well aware what canon is, and I don't know where you got the idea that I was trying to pass off non canon as canon. Where did I say that it was canon that there was a lineage between the two?
Actually, I didn't claim that you had. You have, however, said in a number of ways that the assumption of a continuous design lineage between the two classes may be treated as canon. The apparent lack of understanding of what comprises canon comes from this:
Tiberius wrote:So, just the same way that we can assume that it is canon that Picard goes to the toilet
See the problem? If we have to assume or deduce something, then it's not canon.
Tiberius wrote:Well, for a start, the very existence of the NX class and the Akira class indicates it.
All that this fact indicates is the existence of both classes. This doesn't provide evidence for a continuous design lineage between the two.
Tiberius wrote:There are also other ship designs that have the "Warp nacelles attached to a saucer by booms and no engineering hull" layout, such as the Norway class, and possibly even the Miranda class and Defiant classes.

All of these are canon. And just as we use canon evidences to support the non-canon conclusion that Picard poops, we can use these canon evidences to support the non-canon conclusion that there is a design lineage that goes from the NX class to the Akira class.
This is sort of a red herring. None of the examples which you mention are ships with the intended role of either the NX or the Akira - both of which seem to have widely different roles as it is - and it ignores the fact that immediately subsequent canon ships which DO have the same role as the NX have a very different design aesthetic.
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Re: Fix the NX class

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Re: Fix the NX class

Post by Tiberius »

Mikey wrote:
Tiberius wrote:And you are missing my point.

it is not canon that Picard goes to the toilet, because as you say, it is only canon if it is seen onscreen, and we never saw Picard going to the toilet on screen. However, we can look at the facts we DO know, and use them as a basis for concluding that Picard does, at fairly regular intervals, go to the toilet.

And this is my point.
How am I missing the point if this is exactly what I just said, with the addition of the caveat that we can't call that conclusion - no matter how logical - canon of itself?
The point I was making is what I said immediately afterwards - If we can use canon information to reach the non canon conclusion that Picard poops, the we can also use canon information to reach the non-canon conclusion that there is a lineage of starship designs that goes from the NX class to the Akira class.
Tiberius wrote:If we can use canon information to reach the non canon conclusion that Picard poops, why can't we also use canon information to reach the non-canon conclusion that there is a lineage of starship designs that goes from the NX class to the Akira class?
I answered this before you asked. Please read my previous post. If you can't, then I'll reiterate: there is canon evidence, both direct and circumstantial, to support the idea that Picard shits. There is no evidence for a continuous design lineage between the NX and the Akira; there is only evidence of the existence of both the NX and Akira. The other day, my son and another boy were playing tag at the park. The other boy tagged my son, and my son fell down. It would be irresponsible to accuse the other boy of pushing my son down without having observed such an act to happen, wouldn't it?
There is only circumstantial evidence that Picard shits. You never saw him do it, did you?

Likewise, there is only circumstantial evidence that there is a design lineage between the NX and Akira classes.
Tiberius wrote:I have always been well aware what canon is, and I don't know where you got the idea that I was trying to pass off non canon as canon. Where did I say that it was canon that there was a lineage between the two?
Actually, I didn't claim that you had. You have, however, said in a number of ways that the assumption of a continuous design lineage between the two classes may be treated as canon. The apparent lack of understanding of what comprises canon comes from this:
Tiberius wrote:So, just the same way that we can assume that it is canon that Picard goes to the toilet
See the problem? If we have to assume or deduce something, then it's not canon.
I admit, a slip of the fingers, tongue, whatever. I meant fact, not canon.

It can be reasonably concluded that the existence of a continuous design lineage between the NX class and the Akira class is a fact. I've provided a wealth of evidence to support this conclusion, such as the several other vessel designs that fit the category.
Tiberius wrote:Well, for a start, the very existence of the NX class and the Akira class indicates it.
All that this fact indicates is the existence of both classes. This doesn't provide evidence for a continuous design lineage between the two.
Are you actually suggesting that Starfleet tried the twin-boom design, then abandoned it for a few centuries before coming back to it is just as likely as the existence of a continuous design lineage between the NX class and the Akira class?
Tiberius wrote:There are also other ship designs that have the "Warp nacelles attached to a saucer by booms and no engineering hull" layout, such as the Norway class, and possibly even the Miranda class and Defiant classes.

All of these are canon. And just as we use canon evidences to support the non-canon conclusion that Picard poops, we can use these canon evidences to support the non-canon conclusion that there is a design lineage that goes from the NX class to the Akira class.
This is sort of a red herring. None of the examples which you mention are ships with the intended role of either the NX or the Akira - both of which seem to have widely different roles as it is - and it ignores the fact that immediately subsequent canon ships which DO have the same role as the NX have a very different design aesthetic.
I think you need to read my posts more carefully.

My suggesting was that the twin-boom design was well suited for starships which were used for limited mission types. So it's good for an exploration vessel like the NX class because it isn't meant to be called on for carrying colonists, ferrying cargo, evacuating people, diplomatic missions, waging war etc. The NX class is meant to do one basic thing - boldly go where no one has gone before, and it wasn't designed with the intention that it would do anything far outside the scope of this.

It's good for a battleship like the Akira class because it isn't going to be called on to explore, or ferry colonists, etc. The Akira class is meant to do one basic thing - shoot at things until they blow up, and it wasn't designed with the intention that it would do anything far outside the scope of this.

On the other hand, a ship like the Connie or the Galaxy is indeed going to be called on to have a wide range of missions. The Connies were designed to be able to serve as a diplomatic vehicle one week, then repel a Romulan incursion the next, then carry a supply of medicine to a colony the next, the rescue people from a damaged ship the next, then explore some strange signals the next...

So we have the twin boom design for limited role ships (be they science vessels, fighters, cargo ships, whatever) and the saucer and engineering hull layout for ships that will have to be able to perform a wide range of missions, which is exactly what we saw the Connies and the Galaxies doing.

I've already explained that several times. Please remember it this time.
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