Mosque Protesters Protest Mosque Protesters

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Re: Mosque Protesters Protest Mosque Protesters

Post by Vic »

Deepcrush wrote:Its their right to be there, I don't agree with them being there but its still their right. Could they have picked a better spot, of course they could but they didn't. I don't like my neighbor who can't cut his grass though such is life.

As to talking s**t, do it to me and you'll get hit. It may be your right yell in my face but its my right to say you shoved me first and I hit you... several times in self defense.

That's just it, nobody is contesting their right by law to do so, anyone who was paying attention in class knows this. My father put it a different way Deep, your right to free speech ends with my knuckles flattening your nose. The same thing applies here, it applies to any right one could choose to name.
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Re: Mosque Protesters Protest Mosque Protesters

Post by Vic »

Captain Seafort wrote:
Vic wrote:The reason why the Imam chooses to put in a mosque at this time in that place means everything.
Indeed: it means a) they want a new mosque, for what reason I neither know nor care, and b) it makes sense to put it in a building they already own rather than wasting money on another one.
I can walk up to anyone on the street and start talking s**t to them, it is free speach after all. Now if that person reacts badly to my free speach who is in the wrong? Me for being an ass or them for not bowing and proclaiming "it is your right to speak freely!" Now if it is known why I am ranting at this person I will have more support in what I am doing.
What does you being a fuckwit have anything to do with where they put their place of worship?
It behooves me to be prudent while exercising my rights. This extends to putting a Mosque in an area that just might be emotionally sensitive to thousands of people. It all depends on the reason why.
It's no more emotionally sensitive to put a mosque in New York than it is to put an Irish pub near the Arndale Centre - no-one but gobby fuckwits care.

Fine, let's play that game; it is anyones right to object to the placement of the mosque, whether you like it or not. Only "gobby fuckwits" don't get it.
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Re: Mosque Protesters Protest Mosque Protesters

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How close is too close?

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Re: Mosque Protesters Protest Mosque Protesters

Post by Captain Seafort »

Vic wrote:it is anyones right to object to the placement of the mosque, whether you like it or not.
Indeed - it's also everybody else's right to have a go at said objectors for being obnoxious, stupid bigots.
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Re: Mosque Protesters Protest Mosque Protesters

Post by Aaron »

:lol:

All this has taught me is that American neo-cons really have no idea what their talking about. Apparently this is being built by Sufi Muslims, which are about as far removed from the AQ guys as Unitarian's are from Evangelicals. It's just so damn ridiculous that I can't help but laugh, it's not even a Mosque!
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Re: Mosque Protesters Protest Mosque Protesters

Post by Vic »

All people who object are racists or bigots Seafort?
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Re: Mosque Protesters Protest Mosque Protesters

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Vic wrote:All people who object are racists or bigots Seafort?
To this mosque (or whatever it is)? Yes. Be it through malice or stupidity.
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Re: Mosque Protesters Protest Mosque Protesters

Post by Vic »

Cpl Kendall wrote::lol:

All this has taught me is that American neo-cons really have no idea what their talking about. Apparently this is being built by Sufi Muslims, which are about as far removed from the AQ guys as Unitarian's are from Evangelicals. It's just so damn ridiculous that I can't help but laugh, it's not even a Mosque!
The politically indoctrinated (both sides) know only scream and leap, not to ask questions first. Bloody heck, funding hasn't even been secured yet.
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Re: Mosque Protesters Protest Mosque Protesters

Post by Aaron »

A fellow on SDN did a great write up on why this should be a non-issue:
Alyrium Denryle wrote: I wrote this for part of my own arguments. Perhaps some of you will find it useful. Particularly with the bigotry angle

There are three primary branches or sects of Islam. There are... ...lots of little ones, but it is kind of like dividing them into Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant. The first split happened after the death of Muhammad.

When the Prophet died, the Sunni (which is what Osama bin Laden is), believed that the first four Caliphs were his rightful successors and that them and their heirs were their rightful and legitimate religious leaders. There was an unbroken line of succession from them until 1920 with the fall of the Ottoman Empire.

Shiites believe that it was only Ali, Muhammad's cousin and son-in-law who was the rightful religious leader, along with his heirs. This caused the split, and a brutal civil war. When the 11th Shiite Caliph died, his son disappeared. It is their belief that God "hid" him from public life and that he will come again. Sort of like Jesus.

Here is where things get interesting. Sunnis make up some 85% of Muslims world wide. They have a crazy fundamentalist sect started by a guy named Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab. His branch of Islam became very expansionist and eventually had to be stopped from seizing control of the Arabian peninsula by the ottoman turks. It is dominant religion of Saudi Arabia. They are the source if the 9/11 high-jackers. They were all from Saudi Arabia, they were all Wahhabist Sunnis, and they got their marching orders from a Wahhabist group called Al Qaeda, operating out of Afghanistan which at that time was ruled by the Taliban, which was a Wahhabist theocracy.

Ok. We have have the history lesson. How does this apply? The community center in question is operated and populated by Sufi Muslims. Sufi Muslims are a mystic sect of Muslims founded sometime before the end of the tenth century. It focuses on having a personal relationship with Allah, and rejects the legalism (such as the Wahhabi school of Sunni jurisprudence) which leads to extremism. Historically they have been champions for the poor and downtrodden, and actively embrace the concept of universal love and respect for all faiths. In mannerism and theology, they are basically the Quakers of Islam.

So, being angry at Sufis for building a cultural center is like being angry at Quakers, for what Catholics did at the Massacre of Acre in 1191. The only difference is that the religious split between Sufi and the rest of Islam was a thousand years ago, and the Quakers of today are separated by almost a thousand years from the Catholics who committed the Massacre. The number of innocent men, women, and children is even almost exact--2700 for Acre, approximately 3000 for 9/11.

The logic behind that anger makes no sense. Why should a group of people who are not only personally innocent, but also institutionally innocent feel the need to "respect" the uninformed opinions of those who are offended by this? That ignorance is not excusable. Ignorance does not excuse prejudice. Lets substitute race for religion here for a second.

Lets say someone by the name of Tyron Ramashadaran Nguyen Goldberg (so as to make his race a complete non-issue) was attacked by a cuban guy and spends the rest of his life hating or being uncomfortable around all hispanics. Is that acceptable? Lets assume for the sake of argument that somehow he is statistically prone to be attacked by cubans for some reason. Lets assume that he has an implant in him that makes cubans angry, and that he does not know about this implant (When arguing by analogy this way, I can stipulate all sorts of silly things for the sake of argument). Is it acceptable or reasonable for him to feel this way toward a guy from Argentina? We will call him Mr. Flores. Should Mr. Flores "respect" Mr. Goldberg's prejudice and decide not to move into a house he has owned for longer than the time which has elapsed since Mr. Goldberg's attack?

Clearly the answer to this question is that prejudice is wrong. Therefore it is not Mr. Flores who is at fault here. He is not at fault for the attack on Mr. Goldberg. He is not one of the group that seems overly likely to attack Mr. Goldberg. And Mr. Goldberg is in the wrong for hating him. He owes Mr. Goldberg's prejudice absolutely no respect in this regard whatsoever. If you disagree with that conclusion there are very few ways you can justify it. The only real way is to say that innocent people are morally beholden to the prejudices of others. If you believe that then you disagree with School Integration, the Civil Rights Act etc which were all predicated on the notion that bigotry is wrong and that those who are the victims of bigotry do not owe the bigot their "respect". It does not matter why that person is a bigot either.

Add to the moronic screeching that there is an actual Mosque in Manhattan (though you'd never guess by looking at it) that has been down the road from "ground zero" since before the WTC had been built. So yeah, why aren't they campaigning for the removal of it? Or the dozens of other Muslim facilities. :roll:
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Re: Mosque Protesters Protest Mosque Protesters

Post by Tyyr »

Vic, you're wrong. I have yet to hear an arguement about this that didn't include the terms "they shouldn't be allowed..." and thats an arguement about their legal rights.

Now you're wrong constitutionally, legally, intellectually, and morally. I don't know how much more wrong you can be.
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Re: Mosque Protesters Protest Mosque Protesters

Post by Vic »

Only because you insist on being willfully obstinate and hard headed and choose not to think any deeper than the kiddy pool.
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Re: Mosque Protesters Protest Mosque Protesters

Post by Sionnach Glic »

Then by all means, explain your reasoning. Why should this mosque/community centre not be built?
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Re: Mosque Protesters Protest Mosque Protesters

Post by Captain Seafort »

Vic wrote:Only because you insist on being willfully obstinate and hard headed and choose not to think any deeper than the kiddy pool.
Says the brainless idiot who's come out with the following gems in the last few pages:
Vic the moron wrote:To put in a mosque as a way to gloat over a tragedy as if it were a victory is what has everybody up in arms.

The reason why the Imam chooses to put in a mosque at this time in that place means everything.

It behooves me to be prudent while exercising my rights. This extends to putting a Mosque in an area that just might be emotionally sensitive to thousands of people. It all depends on the reason why.
All of which are utter bullshit. Installing a mosque, community centre, or anything else in Manhattan is no more offensive than the pub landlord who set up O'Shea's near the Arndale center. The fact that the group setting it up are Sufi rather than Wahabbi makes the objectors are ignorant as well as bigoted, but is ultimately irrelevant. If they put up a ten foot tall sign saying "AQ rules OK" or similar then you might have a leg to stand on, but until such time you and your ilk have absolutely nothing.
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Re: Mosque Protesters Protest Mosque Protesters

Post by Mikey »

Vic wrote:
Deepcrush wrote:Its their right to be there, I don't agree with them being there but its still their right. Could they have picked a better spot, of course they could but they didn't. I don't like my neighbor who can't cut his grass though such is life.

As to talking s**t, do it to me and you'll get hit. It may be your right yell in my face but its my right to say you shoved me first and I hit you... several times in self defense.

That's just it, nobody is contesting their right by law to do so, anyone who was paying attention in class knows this. My father put it a different way Deep, your right to free speech ends with my knuckles flattening your nose. The same thing applies here, it applies to any right one could choose to name.
Then your father's as wrong as you are. Let's say police witness this entire situation: I walk up to you and without provocation start talking shit to you about everything and anything (stopping short of making an actual threat.) You, maybe rightly enough, get fed up and break my nose. Which one of us is going to get fitted for bracelets?

And, did you read Kendall's post? The people putting up this Islamic community center have as much relationship to the people who attacked the WTC as you do. The only reason anybody is protesting this center/mosque is because they are brown and happen to share a Scripture - though not a sect - with the terrorists who did perpetrate the attack.
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Re: Mosque Protesters Protest Mosque Protesters

Post by Tyyr »

We're not being obstinate. You're just the only one who thinks ignorance and bigotry are valid reasons for denying innocent people their rights. Congrats on sticking to those guns.
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