Starfleet Fleet Positioning

[stitch626]

Well yes, I was going with baby steps.

[Avatar2312]

It's not like the Borg, or the Breen, or the Xindi were able to attack Earth...

Borg: Vastly superior technology + transwarp capabilities - both times the ship was intercepted by a federation fleet not stationed at earth. Furthermore the first time it wouldn't have made any differences.

Breen: Full scale war. Earth-Sector was protected by a fleet which drove away the enemy quite fast. Damage to earth was minimal at best (a few smoking buildings and a damaged bridge is quite poor for an attack from space).

Xindi: They showed up directly above earth. No time for a fleet to intercept them before they could fire their superweapon - even if it was placed over earth.

It is useless to place ships above inner worlds. You need them at the front to keep the enemy from attacking you in the first place and if incursions occur you need them there to prevent them from going too far. And as seen whenever earth was under attack, the enemy employed vastly superior technologies (also in means of travelling beyond warp) or the damage was minimal because the enemy was detected early enough that ships could assemble in time to combat the intruder.

Meaning that someone could attack your centers of culture and industry (which is by the way at mars regarding the Federation) doesn't mean that you always have to expect an attack there. Especially when you are able to detect any conventional enemy early enough to bring your ships back in time.

[stitch626]

Continuing with the modern navy analogy:

Borg: Vastly superior technology + transwarp capabilities - both times the ship was intercepted by a federation fleet not stationed at earth. Furthermore the first time it wouldn't have made any differences.

Kinda like if We use a Battleship to attack a nation of fishing boats. It doesn't matter where they attack us, their doomed.

Breen: Full scale war. Earth-Sector was protected by a fleet which drove away the enemy quite fast. Damage to earth was minimal at best (a few smoking buildings and a damaged bridge is quite poor for an attack from space).

Kinda like during the Cold War we didn't know here every Soviet vessel was.

Xindi: They showed up directly above earth. No time for a fleet to intercept them before they could fire their superweapon - even if it was placed over earth.

Kinda like a submarine.

[Tsukiyumi]

Never mind "does it include submarines" - I'd like to see some evidence that it's true at all.

You of all people should know that we track the fleets of foreign nations with satellites and good old fashioned intel. I shouldn't have to "provide evidence" for something that should be obvious.

[Captain Seafort]

You of all people should know that we track the fleets of foreign nations with satellites and good old fashioned intel. I shouldn't have to "provide evidence" for something that should be obvious.

I'm a military historian - and history is full of examples of ships disappearing when they shouldn't. Bismarck. The Channel Dash. Kurita's Force A. Belgrano and Vencentino de Mayo. If you want to claim that the US is tracking every warship on the planet, every hour of every day, flawlessly, then prove it.

[Tsukiyumi]

...If you want to claim that the US is tracking every warship on the planet, every hour of every day, flawlessly, then prove it.

I certainly didn't claim that.

The point is that a fleet of ships, or even a single warship couldn't just show up in New York without us knowing about it first. As opposed to the Trek universe, where they can warp in, or use cloaking devices to sneak up on Earth.

[Captain Seafort]

The point is that a fleet of ships, or even a single warship couldn't just show up in New York without us knowing about it first.

Of course it could - submarines especially, given the track record the Russians had of patrolling off the US east coast without being spotted. Given a bit of luck even surface warship could do it - during the war the Germans sailed a couple of battlecruisers and a heavy cruiser home from Brest via the English Channel. Despite the British military having guessed that it was a possible route, deployed reconnaissance aircraft to cover that route, and being able to read encrypted German radio traffic before the Germans did, the fleet was almost at the Straights of Dover before it was spotted, through a combination of luck and clever planning.

[Deepcrush]

I'm going to have to agree with Seafort on a part of this.

That being its impossible to watch everything everywhere. In ST we have to remember that everything can be tracked to the 3D. That means that if you don't want to go through your enemies battle lines and have some time to spare you can go over under and or around in some way.

The lesson needed for this (Starfleet's positioning) is that you can't discount something. Tech makes it easier to track ships, but being better at something doesn't make you perfect at it.

On another topic I would like to add in something. I've seen a few people talk about why bother defending the core worlds since they won't likely see and conflict. In battle, you don't just defend in front of you, but you also defend behind your lines. The reason for this is if your enemy wishes to take out your supply depots or cities. They will try to break through your front line, if they do that and you have nothing behind you then they have free reign until you regroup and abandon your front lines to run back and fight them. To which point you've lost everything you've just fought for.

For ST this is even more true. We've seen here, just like in B5 or 40k that you can just bypass systems or worlds that you don't feel are needed. There is no TRUE single front line. But more or less a general area in which the fighting is currently going on.

This applies that defenses of not only your core worlds but all of your worlds is needed. However you can't defend everything, so you have to apply where those defenses will do the most good. A strong core means that even if your enemy breaks through your main line they can't really gain anything for it. They are inside your territory which gives you a chance to cut them off from their own forces and trap them between your fleets and planet based defenses.

[Avatar2312]

The reason why - in this case - the Klingons wouldn't do that if they manage to break through the frontline is, that even in ST starship ressources are finite. What good is it to have a dozen or so warships head towards earth with its active defensive systems, when they cannot bring any slow freighter to resupply them. Besides that no fleet above earth, doesn't mean that there are no ships at all along the way that can delay the advance or form up to a defensive force in time.

If you fight a war for conquest you will have to do it step by step. If you fight a war for the sake of war, then you better don't fight it, because you will most certainly loose it.

[USSEnterprise]

There still is the fact that Starfleet put every ship in that area of space in one spot. Vulcan was destroyed, and Starfleet didn't think that the Romulans might go after Earth?

[Avatar2312]

Admiral Richard Barnett says: "With our primary fleet engaged in the Laurentian System..."

Note: He says "primary", not entire. Meaning the bulk of starfleet is engaged in a major maneuver of some or any kind, but it doesn't mean, that all ships are there.

[Sionnach Glic]

There still is the fact that Starfleet put every ship in that area of space in one spot. Vulcan was destroyed, and Starfleet didn't think that the Romulans might go after Earth?

Starfleet didn't know anything. They didn't know what happened to Vulcan, that Pike had been captured, that the fleet had been wiped out, who the attackers were or what their agenda was. Only the crew of the Enterprise knew that. And the fleet had already been deployed to god knows where by the time word would have reached them of what was happening, meaning the fleet would be unlikely to return in time.