Picards mistakes

[Teaos]

You don't even deserve a response for what you just said - it's people like you that are the outspoken majority who seem make up their mind on any matter in two seconds - you know nothing of my father's, or family's situation and never will. Well done, with that singular comment of prejudice you've lost nearly all respect I've had for you.

No doubt he worked hard but thats not the point. My point is that by going on welfare he robs every tax paying citizen out there. If people are given the choice to support people you will find the majority do. Just look at all the charity efforts that happen after natural disastors or when someone shows up on the news in need.

I have no doubt people out there truely need help. And they are more than welcome to help that people are freely willing to give. Not being robbed every paycheck against their wills.

who seem make up their mind on any matter in two seconds

What people dont get is that individual circumstances are irrelivant. If you let emotion cloud judgement you make bad calls. You look at the big picture and make decisions based on them. I haven't made my mind up in two seconds. I have made it up over 21 years of looking at the world and not liking what I see.

[Thorin]

No doubt he worked hard but thats not the point. My point is that by going on welfare he robs every tax paying citizen out there. If people are given the choice to support people you will find the majority do. Just look at all the charity efforts that happen after natural disastors or when someone shows up on the news in need.

Getting screwed over by society is the point. He's paid enough taxes and money into shit loads of schemes that if brought back would last him indefinitely.

I have no doubt people out there truely need help. And they are more than welcome to help that people are freely willing to give. Not being robbed every paycheck against their wills.

You have no idea what you're talking about in those rose tinted specs, the pure ignorance..

What people dont get is that individual circumstances are irrelivant. If you let emotion cloud judgement you make bad calls. You look at the big picture and make decisions based on them. I haven't made my mind up in two seconds. I have made it up over 21 years of looking at the world and not liking what I see.

You have no idea what you're talking about - again.

I'm struggling to even talk to you without hurling abuse, so I'll just stop now.

[Tsukiyumi]

Indeed that's true - but the actual point of going there?

I agree also that a lot of this money could be spent solving social problems here on earth, but...

1) even the smaller asteroids in the main belt have trillions of dollars worth of material in them.

2) finding life on another world (like Europa), even microscopic life, would be a serious blow to fanatic religious fundamentalists across the globe.

3) expanding our knowlege of our own solar system can't be a bad idea. Who knows what we might learn about physics, and the nature of reality?

4) learning how to survive on other worlds might really come in handy, given the current state of our world.

Just some thoughts.

[Thorin]

1) even the small asteroids in the main belt have trillions of dollars worth of material in them.

Impossible to mine or even touch at this stage of our development - we can go space exploring we we are required to get extra resources.

2) finding life on another world (like Europa), even microscopic life, would be a serious blow to fanatic religious fundamentalists across the globe.

True, but not rewarding. And this would require travelling to other systems - our development at this time is unable to do this.

3) expanding our knowlege of our own solar system can't be a bad idea. Who knows what we might learn about physics, and the nature of reality?

This is the only benefit there is, and a minor one at that - that looking at gas giants and stars and the like may be of some worth - but we currently lack the technology to even get a manned mission to Mars! Let's start going round space when we are able to.

4) learning how to survive on other worlds might really come in handy, given the current state of our world.

True - but again, let's do it when required.

My point is that why are we wasting money/resources on exploring space when we aren't able to do anything even remotely meaningful while in space? Maybe when we develop fully fledged, controlled, fusion reactors, when we have much more power and have the ability to mine asteroids, explore other systems, etc etc, then we should start actually exploring space.
Governments are just pumping money into organisations like NASA or the ESA for no reason - let's pump money into it when we need to and have the ability to do something.

[Graham Kennedy]

Indeed that's true - but the actual point of going there?

To learn.

[Teaos]

He's paid enough taxes and money into **** loads of schemes that if brought back would last him indefinitely.

Probably. Thats why I hate big government. Give people the choice to spend their own money as they wish.

You have no idea what you're talking about in those rose tinted specs, the pure ignorance..

Rose tinted? Idiot.

You have no idea what you're talking about - again.

What? No idea about your personal situation? Your right I dont know and nor does it matter. I do know about society as a whole and thats what matters when you talk about politics and moral which often go together.

I'm struggling to even talk to you without hurling abuse, so I'll just stop now.

A good reason not to debate when you have strong emotions involved.

[Thorin]

Indeed that's true - but the actual point of going there?

To learn.

To learn what?
Sure, send a rover to the moon and to Mars, or a probe to orbit Jupiter every now and again, but manned missions to the moon, or various other things that simply aren't helping us in this day and age... Why? Let's do it in the future - when we have both the ability to do it well, and directly leading from this - when it offers us rewards. At the moment we simply can't do it well enough (due to technological constraints) which means it is currently of no benefit - on the whole.

[Thorin]

[

A good reason not to debate when you have strong emotions involved.

No - simply looking at your inability to understand the entire situation - which you have already claimed to know about (read your initial statement saying my father should have saved up) - and your plain ignorance and selfishness on the entire welfare issue, is why I am unable to continue it. Because you don't know what you're talking about.

[Tsukiyumi]

I don't specifically disagree with you on any of those comments, Thorin, but technology has to be developed in stages, and landing on an asteroid would be a first step to learning to mine them and return the material in a useful form. And there really could be microorganisms on Europa (a short trip even by our standards).

As for fusion reactors, that was my main draw to attend college: the chance to work on or around a real fusion reactor. I'm a kinesthetic learner, I have to be hands-on, or at least around something long enough to really get it. Of course, my funding evaporated, and so, que sera sera.

If we were to dump money into the technology, it could become viable inside of a decade.

[Azrael]

I think this is starting to get a bit out of control, lets all take a step back, and a deep breath.. It's supposed to be a friendly discussion; not a flame war.

[Teaos]

No - simply looking at your inability to understand the entire situation - which you have already claimed to know about (read your initial statement saying my father should have saved up) - and your plain ignorance and selfishness on the entire welfare issue, is why I am unable to continue it. Because you don't know what you're talking about.

I'm not going debate your personal situation as it isnt really relivant.

And as I said I hate when people call it selfish because that IS ignorant. I have no problem helping out some people who really need it. Thats why I took 2 months at work to help in the recovery of a town that got trashed by a flood and why I help the SPCA.

But the important thing there is that it is MY CHOICE. Personal choice should never be taken away. Yet it is everyday and that is one of the great tragedies of modern life.

[Tsukiyumi]

I am having a seperate discussion with Thorin on the viability and current need for space travel. Actually, I agree that manned missions aren't yielding anything that kickass rovers like the Mars ones can't do, currently.

And, yeah. No flame war please. I'm wearing synthetic fibers that go up like a freaking torch.

[Thorin]

I don't specifically disagree with you on any of those comments, Thorin, but technology has to be developed in stages, and landing on an asteroid would be a first step to learning to mine them and return the material in a useful form. And there really could be microorganisms on Europa (a short trip even by our standards).

As for fusion reactors, that was my main draw to attend college: the chance to work on or around a real fusion reactor. I'm a kinesthetic learner, I have to be hands-on, or at least around something long enough to really get it. Of course, my funding evaporated, and so, que sera sera.

If we were to dump money into the technology, it could become viable inside of a decade.

What I'm trying to say is that instead of the $20 billion a year on space, make that $5 billion a year on space, and $15 billion on research into fusion reactors - so that when we can explore space, we can do it well - which realistically we simply aren't doing at the moment. Let's do things here first, on earth, that then allows us to do things in space. So my all means, let's send a probe to an asteroid, but trying to do anything of any worth, like mining it and getting it back to earth - it can't be done until we have better technology. So what's the point in even trying now when we can do it when we're ready?

[Thorin]

I'm not going debate your personal situation as it isnt really relivant.

Strange - you already have. Explicitly stating that my father should have saved up enough money to last him 5 years. I'm sure I don't need to quote it for you.

And as I said I hate when people call it selfish because that IS ignorant. I have no problem helping out some people who really need it. Thats why I took 2 months at work to help in the recovery of a town that got trashed by a flood and why I help the SPCA.

Decisions should only be given to those who have the ability to make them - if tax was optional, would anyone pay it? Nope. But then there'd be no police force, no fire and rescue, no military, no schools... And then everyone would complain about that. The decision has to be made for the greater good, people, like yourself, are completely biased and while you may choose to give charity to those in need, many would not - especially if it required them to actually do something rather than it just being automatically taken off them.

But the important thing there is that it is MY CHOICE. Personal choice should never be taken away. Yet it is everyday and that is one of the great tragedies of modern life.

The entire history of modern civilization disagrees. If you want to live in a country with no laws and everything is your choice then you're going to be hard pressed.

[Tsukiyumi]

The entire history of modern civilization disagrees. If you want to live in a country with no laws and everything is your choice then you're going to be hard pressed.

I believe the term for that is "Anarchy".