Noncombatants in the Dominion War

[Sionnach Glic]

Well we know from 'The Quickening' that the Dominion is willing to use Biological Weapons a a Planet full of Civilians who disobey them as an example and that these weapons affect the planet for generations.

There's no indication that any planet was actualy gassed, however. And certainly not any planet with any major population.

We also know from 'Rules of Engagement' that Klingons kill all of their enemies regardless since they see it as an Honorable Death.

While the second example doesn't really apply to the Dominion it does tell us that even the local powers do not see the 'laws of war' the way we do now. I'm sure the Dominion is much the same way.

They were also ready to kill Military Officers instead of taking them prisoner, as our current laws require as seen in 'The Changing Face of Evil' when Weyoun plans on destroying the escape pods, he is only stopped by the Founder who wants a psychological victory as well. The exchange seems to indicate that their destruction would be the normal course of action

They're all military targets. It doesn't tell us anything about how they'd treat captured civilian populaces on important worlds.

Didn't they wipe out all the colonies that had been founded on the opposite side of the wormhole? There was a scene where a Jem'Hadar hands Major Kira a Bajoran PADD that had be taken from one of their colonies, who had 'fought most bravely'

Correct, but there's a difference in wiping out small worthless colonies established in your territory and wiping out well populated, built up, resource rich planets. Any infrastructure they can capture intact (fuel facilities, starship construction yards, power plants, manufacturing plants, resources, etc) is a major bonus to them. They're not going to just flatten everything in sight.

[Teaos]

There are a few things we know about the way the Dominion behaves.

*The destroy escape pods showing little care for the standard rules of war. (Retreat from Chin'tok)

*They are willing to destory entire civilian towns (What you leave behind)

*They will take over planets (Betazed)

So while I believe they could be good rulers I think they could also be very nasty, especially during wartime.

[KuvahMagh]

Correct, but there's a difference in wiping out small worthless colonies established in your territory and wiping out well populated, built up, resource rich planets. Any infrastructure they can capture intact (fuel facilities, starship construction yards, power plants, manufacturing plants, resources, etc) is a major bonus to them. They're not going to just flatten everything in sight.

Weyoun and Dukat discuss the annilation of Earth's Population once the war is over to prevent an uprising, I could call that more than a small Colony. Besides that, the Laws of War don't care how big the population is or how long it has been there, you can not attack civillians, doing so violates our current Laws of War.

There's no indication that any planet was actualy gassed, however. And certainly not any planet with any major population.

So then you don't believe, despite the evidence in the episode, that the Dominion infected those people?

They're all military targets. It doesn't tell us anything about how they'd treat captured civilian populaces on important worlds.

We are discussing Laws of War here, our current Laws require that they be taken prisoner not shot so I would say this has bearing on the argument, it shows that the Dominion does not follow what we now consider the Laws of War.

I agree with DC assessment of the situation, the only one who seems to follow these is the UFP.

[Captain Seafort]

*The destroy escape pods showing little care for the standard rules of war. (Retreat from Chin'tok)

This has previously been demonstrated in "Valiant", which was why only Jake, Nog, and the CPO survived.

*They are willing to destory entire civilian towns (What you leave behind)

Plus the previously mentioned case of large-scale deployment of biological weapons.

*They will take over planets (Betazed)

Hardly a bad thing - wars can't be won unless you take territory from the enemy and hold onto it.

The big issue is their treatment of the populations of said planets - I don't recall any mention of Dominion tactics during the occupation of Betazed, but their treatment of the "allies" the Cardassians as cannon-fodder, and the Founder's later willingness to flatten Earth from orbit to prevent a rebellion, suggests that they favoured an approach of rulling through force and the threat of force.

[Sionnach Glic]

The destroy escape pods showing little care for the standard rules of war.

Correct, against military targets. This has no bearing on how indiscriminate they'd be when it comes to important infrastructure and resources.

They are willing to destory entire civilian towns

Correct, ones that are presumably lacking in anything useful to them.

They will take over planets

Taking over territory is kinda the whole point of warfare.
It should also be noted that we never heard of any sort of attrocities or wanton destruction coming from Betazed.

Weyoun and Dukat discuss the annilation of Earth's Population once the war is over to prevent an uprising, I could call that more than a small Colony.

Correct, except at that point the war would be over. Destroying Earth and losing whatever infrastructure and resources are on it would be of little effect at that point, while also serving the purpose of beheading any attempt at an organised rebellion and sending a clear message to any other planets.

Besides that, the Laws of War don't care how big the population is or how long it has been there, you can not attack civillians, doing so violates our current Laws of War.

Irrelevant.

So then you don't believe, despite the evidence in the episode, that the Dominion infected those people?

I don't recall the episode in question, I thought you meant they had discussed gassing them.
So if they were gassed:
How big was the population?
How resource rich was the planet?
Was it in a strategic location?
How much trouble had the populace been causing?
Did it have any factories, fuel depots or construction yards that would have been of any use?

We are discussing Laws of War here, our current Laws require that they be taken prisoner not shot so I would say this has bearing on the argument, it shows that the Dominion does not follow what we now consider the Laws of War.

We're not discussing that at all. We're discussing how the Dominion would have treated planets they captured. Whether they adhere to the Geneva Conventions is irrelevant.

[KuvahMagh]

I don't recall the episode in question, I thought you meant they had discussed gassing them.
So if they were gassed:
How big was the population?
How resource rich was the planet?
Was it in a strategic location?
How much trouble had the populace been causing?
Did it have any factories, fuel depots or construction yards that would have been of any use?

They used Biological Weapons to infect the Planet's Population with a disease that affected them for Generations and lead to a painful death. They did this because the Planet refused to join the Dominion. They don't seem particularly concerned with Infrastructure, only in their Security and Dominance.

Correct, against military targets. This has no bearing on how indiscriminate they'd be when it comes to important infrastructure and resources.

This has a lot of bearing, it shows that they are willing to kill rather than take prisoners and reflects heavily on their moral attitudes which are at the heart of this debate.

It should also be noted that we never heard of any sort of attrocities or wanton destruction coming from Betazed.

It should also then be noted that we heard no reference saying the Planet was Risa like at this point. The fact that we didn't hear anything doesn't mean very much.

And what of their decision to kill every last Cardassian? It would seem that the Founders and the Dominion don't care so long as they win.

[Captain Seafort]

Correct, against military targets. This has no bearing on how indiscriminate they'd be when it comes to important infrastructure and resources.

This has a lot of bearing, it shows that they are willing to kill rather than take prisoners and reflects heavily on their moral attitudes which are at the heart of this debate.

It shows their attitudes towards members of the enemy armed forces. It has no bearing on their attitude towards noncombattants, as they (by definition) wouldn't be shooting at them. Indeed their attitude towards Bajor was one of keeping to the terms of the nonagression pact, despite the Cardies wanting to reimpose the occupation, and the Federation being in no state to stop them. Their attitude seems to be one of "stay within our rules and you can do what you like". Even among full Dominion members in the Gamma Quadrant, the Dominion ruled with a very light touch unless their interests were directly threatened.

It should also be noted that we never heard of any sort of attrocities or wanton destruction coming from Betazed.

It should also then be noted that we heard no reference saying the Planet was Risa like at this point. The fact that we didn't hear anything doesn't mean very much.

The fact that there's no evidence of attrocities is pretty strong evidence that nothing of the sort happened, or at the very least did not occur on a large scale. Even if confirmation could not be obtained while the planet was under occupation, rumours at the very least would almost certainly have got out, and once the Dominion withdrew into Cardassian space towards the end of the war, direct evidence one way or the other would have been available. The chances of large scale atrocities against Betazed not getting even a passing mention are, to put it mildly, slight.

And what of their decision to kill every last Cardassian? It would seem that the Founders and the Dominion don't care so long as they win.

I see it more as an attitude of "stay within our rules and you can do what you like, cross us and we'll kill all of you".

[Captain Picard's Hair]

They used Biological Weapons to infect the Planet's Population with a disease that affected them for Generations and lead to a painful death. They did this because the Planet refused to join the Dominion. They don't seem particularly concerned with Infrastructure, only in their Security and Dominance.

Gassing a population is a rather convenient route (if this was indeed done at all), since this kills the people without destroying any useful physical infrastructure on the planet; this method would be as practical as it is gruesome.

This has a lot of bearing, it shows that they are willing to kill rather than take prisoners and reflects heavily on their moral attitudes which are at the heart of this debate.

These were not non-combatants; it is also practical since it puts less strain on the Dominion in having to watch over POWs and simultaneously thins out Starfleet/Allied forces, further leveraging the manpower advantage they enjoy.

While this cold efficiency may seem callous, it can also help them in their effort to win the war, or in the case of the first example, eliminate a threat while allowing them to use the destroyed people's equipment. These acts do serve a cruel purpose; this kind of efficiency may indeed have a lot to do with the Dominion's success. What I'm seeing here is purposeful, calculated action rather than indiscriminate malice.

[Deepcrush]

And what of their decision to kill every last Cardassian? It would seem that the Founders and the Dominion don't care so long as they win.

Meaningless... the war was over. That was an act of pure anger at defeat and in no way speaks of their actions during war. Betazed and Bajor were left mostly untouched by the whole war. One of them was neutral and the other was taken over. The Dominion had no care for either as long as they didn't work against them.

The Dominion puts winning first, but that doesn't mean they go about killing in mass for the fun of it.

[Captain Picard's Hair]

And what of their decision to kill every last Cardassian? It would seem that the Founders and the Dominion don't care so long as they win.

Meaningless... the war was over. That was an act of pure anger at defeat and in no way speaks of their actions during war. Betazed and Bajor were left mostly untouched by the whole war. One of them was neutral and the other was taken over. The Dominion had no care for either as long as they didn't work against them.

The Dominion puts winning first, but that doesn't mean they go about killing in mass for the fun of it.

It also does serve their purposes in the sense that it sends a message; the Dominion seems to be practiced in the art of psychological warfare. Even enemy military commanders would have to recognize this, as this demonstrates the extent to which the Dominion will fight to the last man and not accept anything less than a complete defeat (except if there's a founder around to be returned to the Link...)

[Sionnach Glic]

They used Biological Weapons to infect the Planet's Population with a disease that affected them for Generations and lead to a painful death. They did this because the Planet refused to join the Dominion. They don't seem particularly concerned with Infrastructure, only in their Security and Dominance.

Ah, I remember which one you were talking about.
Initialy I thought you were talking about some Federation world that had been defeated in combat, but was then gassed anyway. If that had been the case you may have had a point.

However, that is not the case.
The planet could well have had its armed forces intact, and dispersed among cities and other population centres. It was quite clear that they weren't going to surrender, so they had a choice:
1) Orbital bombardment, followed by a ground war in urban environments which would likely have caused massive collatoral damage and would probably have killed a lot of the civilians anyway, thus probably leading to the formation of a guerilla resistance against them.
Or:
2) Gass the planet, leaving the infrastructure intact and suffering no losses.

In this scenario, gassing the planet is the best option.

And more to the point of this debate, it turns out that this incident is a total red herring when it comes to discussing captured UFP worlds. Why? Well:
1) The world you mentioned was conquered as a one-off conflict, not as part of a major on-going war that requires large amounts of resources. Killing off the planet's workers and thus delaying the production of any materials from that world is of little consequence.
2) The UFP world is part of a major on-going campaign. All resources are needed, and they are needed ASAP. Killing off the workers on the planet would then require you to ship your own workers to the planet before any construction can go on. This is a delay that is not acceptable given the circumstances.
3) Filling the planet up with your workers allows your enemies to strike it with little worry, they probably won't care about killing some of your civilians. If their own citizens were still there, however, they'd be a lot more hesitant to launch attacks that may kill civilians. This would be of extreme value, as it means that you can station garrisons, barracks, anti-ship weapons, command posts and other military facilities near cities, towns, etc in the knowledge that they will not simply be blasted from orbit. This gives the planet a major defensive boost against any attacking UFP force.
4) The UFP does not have a ground army, meaning that once any Starfleet elements in the system are defeated there will be little to no serious resistance on the ground.
5) The UFP worlds are unlikely to resist occupation.

Again, the fact that Betazed came out just fine points the fact that the Dominion aren't just going to massacre everything in sight.

This has a lot of bearing, it shows that they are willing to kill rather than take prisoners and reflects heavily on their moral attitudes which are at the heart of this debate.

Incorrect, it shows that they don't particularly care about taking prisoners from the enemies military forces. It says nothing about how they would treat civilians.
As Seafort pointed out, as long as planets followed the rules they were allowed to get along just fine.

It should also then be noted that we heard no reference saying the Planet was Risa like at this point. The fact that we didn't hear anything doesn't mean very much.

Actualy, the fact that we didn't hear anything means quite a bit. Betazed is a fairly prominant world in the UFP. Any attrocities there would likely have been fairly big news. The fact that no such attrocities were ever mentioned points to the fact that none actualy happened.
If you wish to claim that these attrocities did take place, then you must provide evidence other than "well, it might have happened because no one ever said it didn't".

And what of their decision to kill every last Cardassian? It would seem that the Founders and the Dominion don't care so long as they win.

The Cardassians had just rebelled against them at that point and joined the UFP/KE/RSE in the war against the Dominion.

[Tsukiyumi]

...the fact that Betazed came out just fine points the fact that the Dominion aren't just going to massacre everything in sight.

They were headed there in Nemesis for the wedding, so it seems the planet did come out of the war okay.

[Sonic Glitch]

...the fact that Betazed came out just fine points the fact that the Dominion aren't just going to massacre everything in sight.

They were headed there in Nemesis for the wedding, so it seems the planet did come out of the war okay.

Nemesis was also 4 years after the war.

[Sionnach Glic]

Which would have been insufficient time to rebuild everything if the Dominion had acted as indescriminantly as people here suggest.

[Sonic Glitch]

Which would have been insufficient time to rebuild everything if the Dominion had acted as indescriminantly as people here suggest.

Oh I'm sure any violence perpetrated by the Dominion was perfectly discriminate. The Dominion seems to think of violence as a means of teaching their subjects who's in charge and maintaining there order. So if the violence was specifically targeted, it may not be massive damage on a planetary scale, but still serious damage to the society and infrastructure.