WTF? Dolphins and whales on the E-D?

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Another quote

Uhura: Admiral, this is strange. The song is directly ahead. It's coming from San Francisco.

Which supports that it's a signal rather then something being picked up by sensors.

[Mikey]

OK, let me just throw a few things out here:

Determination < opposable thumbs.

- sigged.

Now - Blackstar, I have at one point here actually said that there are aspects of your hypothesis - neither of you has a real theory - which sound logical. By now, however, you have reached the point of just making up things (like the whales are actually aliens who built the pyramids, or Atlantis, or whatever) and then using these made-up ideas as support for your hypothesis. In reading it as a third-party observer, it comes across like this:

A - The whales have technology like subspace communications.
B - Let's all pretend for a second that the whales are actually extraterrestrial sapient beings.
C - They have the technology mentioned in "A" obviously because of the "fact" that they are the aliens mentioned in "B."

Using an unsupported hypothesis as support for another hypothesis just doesn't work. I have long since believed that my dog would kill my family and eat our carcasses (he's not a bad dog, but he IS a dog, after all) if not for the inability to work a doorknob or can opener. Lack of appendages capable of fine motor skills pretty much means that the whales ain't building any radios.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

(like the whales are actually aliens who built the pyramids, or Atlantis, or whatever)

Now that's just stupid. What would whales need with a pyramid?

By now, however, you have reached the point of just making up things

Well, Rochey asked for me to explain the thought behind my idea. And he's making up crap so I figure, why can't I?

Lack of appendages capable of fine motor skills pretty much means that the whales ain't building any radios.

We've seen races in Trek, including carbon-based life forms, capable of telekinesis(moving objects with one's mind).

[Mikey]

Now that's just stupid. What would whales need with a pyramid?

You're right - on the other hand it's so obvious that they're actually extraterrestrials.

Well, Rochey asked for me to explain the thought behind my idea. And he's making up crap so I figure, why can't I?

#1 - This was part of a larger point - don't intentionally quote me out of context.

#2 - Yes, he's made stuff up, as have you. Until now, that stuff has had a basis, or at least been tangential, to evidence from the film. The ET whales thing is just... whoa. PLUS, you can't support one made-up point with another, even more baseless one!

We've seen races in Trek, including carbon-based life forms, capable of telekinesis(moving objects with one's mind).

And we saw the whales do this... when, exactly?

*EDIT* I think I see the issue at hand here. I just realized what Blackstar's response would be to my last point above, and it came to me. Blackstar - the end of a discussion of this nature isn't to determine what is possible, as the number of things that fit that definition is nearly infinite. Rather, the end is to determine what is most probable. That is why principles like Occam's Razor apply, and why an argument based on make-believe (like the "whales are aliens" thing) doesn't really hold any water.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

And we saw the whales do this... when, exactly?

It is an acceptable intuitive leap from spaceborne whales.

The ET whales thing is just... whoa

That's not entirely true. The probe spoke whale, came to find why they lost contact with the whales(an idea proposed by Spock, not me). It would make sense that the probe was from the whale's homeworld checking up on their colonists.

[Duskofdead]

Pretty much. I just like doing this cause I have the more solid arguement for a change

You have a slightly more solid argument than you usually have, but being more solid than a vacuum is nothing to brag about. You've consistently failed to acknowlege (or, I think, even realise) that you are the one who has to provide evidence for your claim that whales can produce subspace signals.

Okay, stupid questions here. If the whales' signal could not be detected from great distances, why was a probe sent at all, merely to try to detect the whalesong and then promptly leave?

Assuming the probe was just a routine checkin, what sort of "signal" must whales be capable of creating to at least be detected from orbit, if not farther? I have never before in my life cared enough about the distances involved with radio or any other type of transmissions to research it.

But from glancing over the argument, I think it's quite fair to say that the film itself introduced the ridiculous givens long before Rochey or Chakat Blackstar stepped onto the scene. Accepting the facts as they are presented in the movie and then throwing around the title of ridiculously fanciful claims seems, in context, rather silly.

[Sionnach Glic]

They used to have thumbs but are so advanced they don't need them anymore

Prove it.

Sure we have(points at the ocean) they're over there.

I said technnology. I don't recall whales ever using tech. In fact, if they had such tech you'd imagine they'd adress the little problem of being killed off.

Spock: As suspected. The probe's transmissions are the songs sung by whales.
Kirk: Whales.
Spock: Specifically, humpback whales.
Bones: That's crazy. Who would send a probe hundreds of light-years to talk to whales?
Kirk: It's possible. Whales have been on earth far earlier than man.
Spock: 10 million years earlier. Humpbacks were heavily hunted by man. They've been extinct since the 21st century. It's possible that an alien intelligence sent the probe to determine why they lost contact.

Okay. So obviously they had contact with the whales before. Perhaps another probe arrived before humans had the technology to detect it. Or perhaps more than one.

Another quote

Uhura: Admiral, this is strange. The song is directly ahead. It's coming from San Francisco.

Which supports that it's a signal rather then something being picked up by sensors.

That quote was adressed long ago.

[Aaron]

Okay, stupid questions here. If the whales' signal could not be detected from great distances, why was a probe sent at all, merely to try to detect the whalesong and then promptly leave?

Assuming the probe was just a routine checkin, what sort of "signal" must whales be capable of creating to at least be detected from orbit, if not farther? I have never before in my life cared enough about the distances involved with radio or any other type of transmissions to research it.

Standard radio will continue through space forever, however it becomes hard to pick out from the natural "background noise" after a while. Apparently that's why SETI is a bust, I'll see if I can find the article I read on it.

Subspace Radio seems to degrade after a while, given the precensce of booster stations across the Federation. In fact IIRC they mentioned a range of 22 lightyears in an episode (a number blatently ripped off from the distance rl radio travels before hitting the horizon).

[Mikey]

It is an acceptable intuitive leap from spaceborne whales.

It is an UNACCEPTABLE, random, and arbitrary leap from spaceborne whales. Leaping from spaceborne whales is also not an allowable argument; it's another example of using a make-believe idea as "fact" to support another one. There's no evidence or even suggestion of spaceborne whales; how do you use spaceborne whales as "evidence" of another possibility?

That's not entirely true. The probe spoke whale, came to find why they lost contact with the whales(an idea proposed by Spock, not me). It would make sense that the probe was from the whale's homeworld checking up on their colonists.

No, it wouldn't make sense. It would be a possibility, but is certainly unsupported enough to not be able to make it from possibility to likelihood. It is just as possible that all whales are actually spectres composed entirely of ectoplasm and psychic energy - but it still doesn't make sense.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

It is an UNACCEPTABLE, random, and arbitrary leap from spaceborne whales. Leaping from spaceborne whales is also not an allowable argument; it's another example of using a make-believe idea as "fact" to support another one. There's no evidence or even suggestion of spaceborne whales; how do you use spaceborne whales as "evidence" of another possibility?

No, the 'random and arbitrary' leap was to spaceborne whales. Not from them.

I said technnology. I don't recall whales ever using tech. In fact, if they had such tech you'd imagine they'd adress the little problem of being killed off.

Unless they have their own prime directive. Whales went extinct before Warp Drive was invented on Earth.

Okay. So obviously they had contact with the whales before. Perhaps another probe arrived before humans had the technology to detect it. Or perhaps more than one.

If they did have contact with the whales before and were just looking for other cetacians, then why send another probe? Also, how long do you plan to keep jumping through hoops like this before you give up?

That quote was adressed long ago

Actually the quote you addressed was about Uhura recieving whale song. This quote suggests that it is a transmission. Otherwise they would have detected the signal from the pacific, the whales usual stomping grounds, and pick those up, rather then waste time in San Francisco.

[Sionnach Glic]

Unless they have their own prime directive.

Prove it.

If they did have contact with the whales before and were just looking for other cetacians, then why send another probe?

For the same reason documentary makers go out of their way to try and film rare animals that have been filmed dozens of times before.

Also, how long do you plan to keep jumping through hoops like this before you give up?

How long do you plan on not giving evidence for anything you've said?

Actually the quote you addressed was about Uhura recieving whale song. This quote suggests that it is a transmission. Otherwise they would have detected the signal from the pacific, the whales usual stomping grounds, and pick those up, rather then waste time in San Francisco.

1) Uhura doesn't say that there's a transmission coming from there, she says that the song is coming from there.
2) Weren't the whales they found from an aquarium in SF? That'd fit perfectly with my theory.

[Mikey]

No, the 'random and arbitrary' leap was to spaceborne whales. Not from them.

Actually, both leaps were random and arbitrary:

It is an acceptable intuitive leap FROM spaceborne whales.

(my emphasis.)

It is not intuitive, it's forced and affected; and that leap is launching from a platform that is unfounded (the spaceborne whales thing.)

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Prove it.

It is a logical assumption that if the probe was built by their homeworld, and that they showed no sign of technology while here on earth that there is some non-interferance protocol that had to be enforced even at the cost of their own lives

How long do you plan on not giving evidence for anything you've said?

Only until you provide any evidence, whatsoever for what you've said.

1) Uhura doesn't say that there's a transmission coming from there, she says that the song is coming from there.

Same difference. The mention of the comms being involved was because they never mention them. They took the mention of it for granted because their would be no one else in the area who'd use comms.

2) Weren't the whales they found from an aquarium in SF? That'd fit perfectly with my theory.

Uh...how?

[Mikey]

Unless they have their own prime directive. Whales went extinct before Warp Drive was invented on Earth.

It is a logical assumption that if the probe was built by their homeworld...

Here are two further examples of "If's" and "maybe's" that you have invented to support your idea. This should be an indication that it's not really a tenable position.

Also, how long do you plan to keep jumping through hoops like this before you give up?

In addition to giving the impression that you don't actually have any support for your hypothesis, do you have any idea how puerile this sounds? (BTW - you're jumping through the same hoops.)

Prove it.

I understand what you're saying, but do you have any idea how puerile this sounds?

[Sionnach Glic]

It is a logical assumption that if the probe was built by their homeworld,

Prove it was built by whales.
Prove that whales' homeworld is not Earth.

and that they showed no sign of technology while here on earth that there is some non-interferance protocol that had to be enforced even at the cost of their own lives

Prove that whales are extra-terrestrials.

Only until you provide any evidence, whatsoever for what you've said.

You mean the evidence I already provided and which you responded to with the incredibly logical and well thought out rebutal of

You call that backing it up? Boy, I'd sure hate to serve with you in the army.

You're the one making these wild claims that whales are aliens that can shoot subspace beams out their asses; start backing them up.

Same difference. The mention of the comms being involved was because they never mention them. They took the mention of it for granted because their would be no one else in the area who'd use comms.

As I already pointed out when you brought up Uhura's first quote; that doesn't necessarily mean they were using subspace to detect them. Scanning for the vibrations, as already mentioned, would do just the same trick.

Uh...how?

Prove it.

It is a logical assumption that if the probe was built by their homeworld, and that they showed no sign of technology while here on earth that there is some non-interferance protocol that had to be enforced even at the cost of their own lives

How long do you plan on not giving evidence for anything you've said?

Only until you provide any evidence, whatsoever for what you've said.

1) Uhura doesn't say that there's a transmission coming from there, she says that the song is coming from there.

Same difference. The mention of the comms being involved was because they never mention them. They took the mention of it for granted because their would be no one else in the area who'd use comms.

Uh...how?

Because they were able to detect the closest whales to their position.

I understand what you're saying, but do you have any idea how puerile this sounds?

Oh, I do. Still, burden of proof is on Blackstar, even if shi doesn't want to acknowledge it.