WTF? Dolphins and whales on the E-D?

[Captain Seafort]

Did you miss the part where I said, lower life forms? Clearly the probe didn't consider humans an important species

We've no evidence that the probe even recognised any species. It could easily have been programmed to approach a world, scan it until it detected something matching certain parameters (such as whalesong), and then continue its journey.

Well, who sent the probe then?

As I said, in the very paragraph you quoted, an interstellar David Attenborough.

And the Ba'ku didn't have starships(that we know of) either(at the time we saw them), yet they were no longer on their homeworld.

Correct. We also have evidence that the Ba'ku had starships at some point in their history, and arrived from another world, because they said so. There is nothing of the sort regarding the whales.

Stop going off on a tangent.

So, answering your posts is "going off on a tangent" now is it? Your tactics of ignoring and/or dismissing without response any point that contradicts your preconceived delusions is becoming ever more apparent.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

So, answering your posts is "going off on a tangent" now is it? Your tactics of ignoring and/or dismissing without response any point that contradicts your preconceived delusions is becoming ever more apparent

Hey, you're the one who's supporting Rochey's preconceived delusions. Howabout you wait to argue with me until after I'm done beating down Rochey.

[Sionnach Glic]

Do you even try to answer these ideas yourself? They performed genetic engineering so they could send subspace messages to their homeworld

Now that has to be the funniest thing I've read in this entire thread.
1) How did they do it?
2) Prove whales are aliens.
3) If they were able to send messages to their homeworld, what was the point of the probe?

So it systems were advanced enough to detect sound underwater but not advanced enough to detect the actual whales? Am I the only one not understanding the logic behind Rochey's idea here?

So...are you being deliberately dense here, or did you just fail at reading comprehension in school?
I stated already that the probe was advanced enough to pick that stuff up, but lacked the AI capacity to do something it wasn't programed to do; ie, scan for the whales.

Only if you're pissing off people who aren't violent in nature, like humpback whales

Uh, did you miss the other sapient race that happened to inhabit the same planet? You know, humans? The fact that the probe didn't consider "woah, there's another group of people here, and they have space ships. Maybe I should stop screwing with their weather." points to a lack of AI in the probe.

We only know it was bad for humaniods. Besides, if the probe found the whales, the weather would go back to normal if they didn't find the whales then the loss of less advanced lifeforms isn't that big of a deal.

"Less advanced"? Try claiming that again when whales have starships, M/AM reactors and the ability to fly FTL.

The Ba'ku didn't make their technology apparent either, yet they must have still had it.

That statement would hold more weight if the Space Amish hadn't specificaly stated that they had technology, and then gave it up.
Whales, on the other hand, have no technology. Or even the capacity to use or build technology. Not having pentadactyl limbs is a bitch.

Did you miss the part where I said, lower life forms? Clearly the probe didn't consider humans an important species

No, but if it had a sapient AI it should have realised who the top dogs were on this planet and been a bit more cautious about screwing with our ecosystem.

Well, who sent the probe then?

*shrug* Who knows. Perhaps some advanced cetacean-like race in some distant part of the galaxy who're interested in contacting all other cetaceans in the galaxy. Perhaps, as Seafort suggested, a type of interstellar David Attenborough.
But that's beside the point. The real point is that it was never hinted that the whales on Earth are some branch of extra-terrestrial whale species. Indeed, that can't be the case without disregarding real-life fossil evidence by saying that such evidence doesn't exist in Trek, or by saying that they were here for millions of years.

And the Ba'ku didn't have starships(that we know of) either(at the time we saw them), yet they were no longer on their homeworld.

Not then they didn't. But they were specificaly stated to have had such technology at one point and given it up. Find a similar statement about the whales and your theory may have some substance.

They had advanced technology at one point, but didn't use it anymore. Who's to say the humpbacks of Earth weren't along the same lines?

Prove it.

In fact, how about you prove your original subspace connection theory with something other than the reference to Uhura?

[Captain Seafort]

Hey, you're the one who's supporting Rochey's preconceived delusions.

No, I'm the one supporting Rochey's logically supported arguments.

Howabout you wait to argue with me until after I'm done beating down Rochey.

I'd rather start now - the heat death of the universe is still quite a way off.

[Sionnach Glic]

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Now that has to be the funniest thing I've read in this entire thread.
1) How did they do it?
2) Prove whales are aliens.
3) If they were able to send messages to their homeworld, what was the point of the probe?

1)technology, duh
2)the probe suggests that possibility
3)the probe was to find out why the whales stopped sending messages. Did you even watch this movie?

So...are you being deliberately dense here, or did you just fail at reading comprehension in school?

Actually I was top of my class in english.

stated already that the probe was advanced enough to pick that stuff up, but lacked the AI capacity to do something it wasn't programed to do; ie, scan for the whales.

So, the AI can navigate long distances, is sent to contact the whales, but isn't advanced enough to scan for the whales themselves? That makes no sense.

Uh, did you miss the other sapient race that happened to inhabit the same planet? You know, humans? The fact that the probe didn't consider "woah, there's another group of people here, and they have space ships. Maybe I should stop screwing with their weather." points to a lack of AI in the probe.

Why would it stop? It disabled Klingon ships and Federation starships alike, as well as the spacedock. What incentive would it have to stop when no one in the area could stop it?

"Less advanced"? Try claiming that again when whales have starships, M/AM reactors and the ability to fly FTL.

Well, the probe seemed pretty advanced

Or even the capacity to use or build technology. Not having pentadactyl limbs is a bitch.

You'd be suprised at what someone can do with enough determination.

No, but if it had a sapient AI it should have realised who the top dogs were on this planet and been a bit more cautious about screwing with our ecosystem.

Why would it stop for the sake of humans. It's only human arragence that would assume they were the 'top dogs' of Earth

Perhaps some advanced cetacean-like race in some distant part of the galaxy who're interested in contacting all other cetaceans in the galaxy

Another cetacean-like race that just happens to speak the exact same language as Humpback whales? That's less likely then my subspace theory.

The real point is that it was never hinted that the whales on Earth are some branch of extra-terrestrial whale species

I thought that was the whole idea behind the probe

In fact, how about you prove your original subspace connection theory with something other than the reference to Uhura?

You really need to pay attention old man. In addition to the whale songs Uhura recieved, there's also the signal picked up by every single ship that encountered the probe.

Okay, your turn to prove something that doesn't involve in rationalizing aka altering, on-screen evidence to suit your theory.

[Captain Seafort]

1)technology, duh

You mean the technology they don't have?

2)the probe suggests that possibility

Which part of the word "proof" was unclear?

3)the probe was to find out why the whales stopped sending messages.

Wrong. The probe's purpose was never established - as has been said repeatedly, it could easily have been an interstellar David Attenborough.

Actually I was top of my class in english.

Must have been a really crap class.

So, the AI can navigate long distances, is sent to contact the whales, but isn't advanced enough to scan for the whales themselves? That makes no sense.

Why? The basics of "travel distance a for time b, then perform scan c until you get result d" are not difficult.

Why would it stop? It disabled Klingon ships and Federation starships alike, as well as the spacedock. What incentive would it have to stop when no one in the area could stop it?

Because it's wrecking the planet, and boiling off the oceans. Given enough time, that would kill every living thing on the planet, including the whales

Well, the probe seemed pretty advanced

Yes, it did. What's that got to do with this supposed whale technology?

You'd be suprised at what someone can do with enough determination.

Determination < opposable thumbs.

Why would it stop for the sake of humans. It's only human arragence that would assume they were the 'top dogs' of Earth

That, plus we're one of only a handful of species to use tools (a group that does not include whales) and the only one to use refined metals.

Another cetacean-like race that just happens to speak the exact same language as Humpback whales? That's less likely then my subspace theory.

Humans are fascinated by the great apes, because of out similarities. This does not mean the apes are our intellectual equal, or that we can speak chimp.

I thought that was the whole idea behind the probe

"Thinking" is not a term that should be associated with that sentence. Or you generally for that matter.

[Sionnach Glic]

1)technology, duh

Prove they had access to such technology.
In fact, care to tell me why if they had access to such technology they'd remain in a form that makes it utterly impossible for them to build such technology?

2)the probe suggests that possibility
3)the probe was to find out why the whales stopped sending messages. Did you even watch this movie?

Prove it was built by whales.

Actually I was top of my class in english.

Care to actualy display that, then?

So, the AI can navigate long distances, is sent to contact the whales, but isn't advanced enough to scan for the whales themselves? That makes no sense.

It's not difficult to navigate long distances. Hell, we can send probes and stuff to other systems now. The AI, if it can even be called that, would only have needed to be sufficient to follow a pre-programmed course (occasionaly using its sensors to detect and avoid obstacles or acount for stellar drift) and follow a pre-programmed set of queries and responses when it arrives at its destination. Everything it needed would have been pre-programmed, so there'd have been no need for a sapient AI system.

Why would it stop? It disabled Klingon ships and Federation starships alike, as well as the spacedock. What incentive would it have to stop when no one in the area could stop it?

Because declaring war is damn stupid, which is effectively what it did. Iraq couldn't possibly have stopped the USA, but everyone agrees it was a damn stupid move to start a war with it. Also, if your theory that the probe was built by whales is correct, then the probe obviously didn't care about possible reprocussions against them for what it did.

Well, the probe seemed pretty advanced

Correct. And humpback whales aren't. Hence the whales are the less advanced race here.

You'd be suprised at what someone can do with enough determination.

By all means, explain how it's possible to build things when you have no manipulatory limbs.

Why would it stop for the sake of humans. It's only human arragence that would assume they were the 'top dogs' of Earth

No, it's a simple fact evidenced by the simple fact that they're extinct and we're flying around the galaxy in spaceships.

Another cetacean-like race that just happens to speak the exact same language as Humpback whales? That's less likely then my subspace theory.

Who said they had to speak the same language? They only had to look for vocalisations that indicated sentience.

I thought that was the whole idea behind the probe

By all means, show me a quote where they stated whales are aliens.

You really need to pay attention old man. In addition to the whale songs Uhura recieved, there's also the signal picked up by every single ship that encountered the probe.

Yes, that encountered the probe, which we know has comms. This doesn't prove a bunch of whales stuck in the sea can communicate via subspace.

Okay, your turn to prove something that doesn't involve in rationalizing aka altering, on-screen evidence to suit your theory.

So much for your claims of good reading comprehension.

[Sonic Glitch]

By all means, explain how it's possible to build things when you have no manipulatory limbs.

Telekinesis, Duh.

BTW: As an outside neutral observer, to me both of your theories are just as "right" as the other, but since you're both being such assets about it (only off by 3 letters), I don't think anyone here really cares what you have to say on the matter.

[Sionnach Glic]

Telekinesis, Duh.

[Sonic Glitch]

Telekinesis, Duh.

Before anyone asks, I'm on nobody's side but my own.

[Captain Seafort]

Best side to be on.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

BTW: As an outside neutral observer, to me both of your theories are just as "right" as the other, but since you're both being such assets about it (only off by 3 letters), I don't think anyone here really cares what you have to say on the matter.

I'd do that, but only when Rochey admits that my theory is at least as valid as his.

In fact, care to tell me why if they had access to such technology they'd remain in a form that makes it utterly impossible for them to build such technology?

I was simply rationalizing the facts to fit my theory. Just like you did. And to actually answer your question, not all technology is mechanical and not all manupulation is done manually. In fact, it's possible they were so advanced they no longer need arms and such to manipulate their technology.

Prove it was built by whales

I was rationalizing the facts, which you should be familier with.

Because declaring war is damn stupid, which is effectively what it did. Iraq couldn't possibly have stopped the USA, but everyone agrees it was a damn stupid move to start a war with it. Also, if your theory that the probe was built by whales is correct, then the probe obviously didn't care about possible reprocussions against them for what it did.

You could argue that we declared war first by killing the whales.

By all means, explain how it's possible to build things when you have no manipulatory limbs.

They became advanced enough not to need manuipulatory limbs and the useless limbs slowly evolved away

No, it's a simple fact evidenced by the simple fact that they're extinct and we're flying around the galaxy in spaceships.

That proves we're the more violent species, not the more advanced ones.

Who said they had to speak the same language?

Spock did. In the movie.

Yes, that encountered the probe, which we know has comms. This doesn't prove a bunch of whales stuck in the sea can communicate via subspace.

If the whales stuck in the sea can't communicate then why was the probe sending the signal on subspace frequencys in the first place?

So much for your claims of good reading comprehension.

Purhaps you are just bad at explaining things.

[Sionnach Glic]

I was simply rationalizing the facts to fit my theory. Just like you did.

No, what I did was rationalise facts.
What you did was drag the facts into an alley, beat them senseless and dump their mangled corpses in the back of a van marked 'My Theory".

And to actually answer your question, not all technology is mechanical and not all manupulation is done manually. In fact, it's possible they were so advanced they no longer need arms and such to manipulate their technology.

And how would their technology get to such a state where they don't have to do anything physicaly in the first place? To progress to that level they'd have needed to start by building things, which is difficult without opposable thumbs.

I was rationalizing the facts, which you should be familier with.

Except my rationalisations are for things which we know are possible. Not claiming that whales are aliens, despite all evidence.

You could argue that we declared war first by killing the whales.

Not really, seeing as how they were on our planet. Technicaly, that could be counted as a hostile incursion.

And I really don't see why the hell I'm even bothering to argue this in the first place. Prove whales are aliens.

They became advanced enough not to need manuipulatory limbs and the useless limbs slowly evolved away

Oh, so their technology is millions of years old at the least? Funny how they've never been encountered apart from this one probe.
You know, I think the words "prove it" are quite apt in this situation.

That proves we're the more violent species, not the more advanced ones.

Actualy it proves we're both, since the whales never exhibited any tech at all.

Spock did. In the movie.

Quote it.

Purhaps you are just bad at explaining things.

Given that you consistantly fail at spelling simple words such as "perhaps" on a regular basis, I'm betting on my supposition.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

No, what I did was rationalise facts.
What you did was drag the facts into an alley, beat them senseless and dump their mangled corpses in the back of a van marked 'My Theory".

same difference

And how would their technology get to such a state where they don't have to do anything physicaly in the first place? To progress to that level they'd have needed to start by building things, which is difficult without opposable thumbs.

They used to have thumbs but are so advanced they don't need them anymore

Not really, seeing as how they were on our planet. Technicaly, that could be counted as a hostile incursion

Actually, Whales were here before humans evolved so...that idea of yours doesn't hold water

Oh, so their technology is millions of years old at the least? Funny how they've never been encountered apart from this one probe

Sure we have(points at the ocean) they're over there.

Quote it.

Spock: As suspected. The probe's transmissions are the songs sung by whales.
Kirk: Whales.
Spock: Specifically, humpback whales.
Bones: That's crazy. Who would send a probe hundreds of light-years to talk to whales?
Kirk: It's possible. Whales have been on earth far earlier than man.
Spock: 10 million years earlier. Humpbacks were heavily hunted by man. They've been extinct since the 21st century. It's possible that an alien intelligence sent the probe to determine why they lost contact.

Given that you consistantly fail at spelling simple words such as "perhaps" on a regular basis, I'm betting on my supposition

I don't always have time to run spell check. Beside, you've spelled four words in the parts I've quoted wrong, such as consistently.