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But you suggest that perhaps the probe wasn't fitted with sensors at all. While that's certainly a possibility, it stretches belief a bit that someone would go through all the trouble and expense of creating such a device and send it off without any way of detecting objects that my cross its path

I'd agree with you there, but then you'd think they'd add an AI, which contridicts what you were trying to say before.

Incorrect: I've given evidence, it's the exact same as yours. It merely leads to a different conclusion

Your conclusion is incorrect

It didn't have the capacity to think "oh, wait, I'm ******* the planet up and probably killing all the people I'm trying to talk to".

We have no proof that it would've been lethal to whales

By all means, explain why the ability to contact something in orbit using a method that organic creatures cannot detect would come about.

You're not gonna like this but: Genetic engineering

It is when it fits the facts and the opposing theories introduce unknown factors.

But if it's based on nothing more then speculation, while the opposing theory is, that makes my theory more solid and thus the correct one.

And you have yet to back up your theorys. Should I take that as a concesion?

ChakatBlackstar wrote:You're not gonna like this but: Genetic engineering

Oh, come on.

Other than that, though, you guys DO realize that you're not going to convince each other?

Mikey wrote:

ChakatBlackstar wrote:You're not gonna like this but: Genetic engineering

Oh, come on.

Other than that, though, you guys DO realize that you're not going to convince each other?

Pretty much. I just like doing this cause I have the more solid arguement for a change

I'd agree with you there, but then you'd think they'd add an AI, which contridicts what you were trying to say before.

Not if they weren't particularly proficient at building AI systems, which seems to be the case given the apparent lack of one in the probe.

Your conclusion is incorrect

Occam's Razor disagrees with you.

We have no proof that it would've been lethal to whales

No, but screwing with a planet's environment tends to be a bad idea. Even if it isn't lethal, it's quite likely to piss off the locals.

You're not gonna like this but: Genetic engineering

Ah, so whales actualy performed genetic engineering on themselves. Now it all makes perfect sense.

But if it's based on nothing more then speculation, while the opposing theory is, that makes my theory more solid and thus the correct one.

Wrong. My theory, as I showed in the previous post, has the same amount of evidence yours does. It merely has more speculation to remove the unknown factor of your magic whale idea. Ergo, it is just as solid as yours.
Ergo, it is the correct theory.
Ergo, this debate is done.
Ergo, I win.

And you have yet to back up your theorys. Should I take that as a concesion?

So, are you blind, or just being deliberately dishonest? Did you happen to miss the large three paragraphs in which I supplied that backing in my previous post?

Mikey wrote:Other than that, though, you guys DO realize that you're not going to convince each other?

Oh, I know. I was just having fun watching Blackstar jumping through hoops and claiming hir "whales can shoot subspace beams out their asses" theory to be superior, despite the principle of logical parismony declaring mine to be the superior theory.

And besides, this debate is long over. Unless Blackstar can bring something other than "but you use speculation" or "screw Occam's Razor, I'm right!" into this debate, then my theory stands as the most valid.
Ergo, it's over.

ChakatBlackstar wrote:Pretty much. I just like doing this cause I have the more solid arguement for a change

You have a slightly more solid argument than you usually have, but being more solid than a vacuum is nothing to brag about. You've consistently failed to acknowlege (or, I think, even realise) that you are the one who has to provide evidence for your claim that whales can produce subspace signals.

Not if they weren't particularly proficient at building AI systems, which seems to be the case given the apparent lack of one in the probe

Like the apparent lack of sensors?

No, but screwing with a planet's environment tends to be a bad idea. Even if it isn't lethal, it's quite likely to **** off the locals

But it was trying to find the locals in the first place.

Ah, so whales actualy performed genetic engineering on themselves. Now it all makes perfect sense.

Told ya you wouldn't like it. In that era humans could perform genetic engineering on themselves(if it wasn't against the law), so why not other species like whales?

Wrong. My theory, as I showed in the previous post, has the same amount of evidence yours does. It merely has more speculation to remove the unknown factor of your magic whale idea. Ergo, it is just as solid as yours.
Ergo, it is the correct theory.
Ergo, this debate is done.
Ergo, I win.

You can keep saying that but that won't make it true. Your 'evidence' is all speculation without any evidence whatsoever. Where as my evidence is speculation based on on-screen evidence.

Did you happen to miss the large three paragraphs in which I supplied that backing in my previous post?

You call that backing it up? Boy, I'd sure hate to serve with you in the army.

Oh, I know. I was just having fun watching Blackstar jumping through hoops and claiming hir "whales can shoot subspace beams out their asses" theory to be superior, despite the principle of logical parismony declaring mine to be the superior theory.

You're the one claiming the probe is intelligent enough to pick up sound, underwater at long range, but lacks the intelligence to detect the pressence of the people it's trying to contact, and begins destrying the local enviroment as a result. That makes no sense what so ever.

This debate is long over. Unless Rochey can bring something other than "The probe defys all logic" or "my baseless logic is right!" into this debate, then my theory stands as the most valid.
Ergo, it's over.

I hereby declare everyone to be wrong.

Seconded, but Tsuki, you're wrong. My debate coach is always right.

Like the apparent lack of sensors?

No, as the sensors' presence is backed up by the fact it was able to detect the whales singing.

But it was trying to find the locals in the first place.

Correct. Yet it's not a good idea to piss off the people you're trying to find by screwing with their homeworld. So unless the probe's builders didn't give a damn about causing damage to other races' planets, the probe obviously didn't recognise that it was taking a bad course of action.

Told ya you wouldn't like it. In that era humans could perform genetic engineering on themselves(if it wasn't against the law), so why not other species like whales?

And exactly how would these whales perform genetic engineering on themselves?
And for that matter, explain why they'd want to be able to talk to something in orbit when there would have been nothing in orbit for them to talk to.

You can keep saying that but that won't make it true. Your 'evidence' is all speculation without any evidence whatsoever. Where as my evidence is speculation based on on-screen evidence.

And yet more ignoring of my previous posts.

You call that backing it up? Boy, I'd sure hate to serve with you in the army.

Okay then, let's see you back your theory up with something more than "well, Uhura was the one who detected it" and which can't be explained by my theory.

You're the one claiming the probe is intelligent enough to pick up sound, underwater at long range, but lacks the intelligence to detect the pressence of the people it's trying to contact, and begins destrying the local enviroment as a result. That makes no sense what so ever.

I never said it had any inteligence at all. I said its systems were advanced enough to detect sound underwater at long range (which isn't surprising given we can do that now).

me,myself and I wrote:Seconded, but Tsuki, you're wrong.

Of course he's wrong - he said so himself.

ChakatBlackstar wrote:Told ya you wouldn't like it. In that era humans could perform genetic engineering on themselves(if it wasn't against the law), so why not other species like whales?

Because they have no hands.

Or technology, for that matter. Hence the question of 'how'. Also relevant is the question of 'why'.

And exactly how would these whales perform genetic engineering on themselves?
And for that matter, explain why they'd want to be able to talk to something in orbit when there would have been nothing in orbit for them to talk to

Do you even try to answer these ideas yourself? They performed genetic engineering so they could send subspace messages to their homeworld

I never said it had any inteligence at all. I said its systems were advanced enough to detect sound underwater at long range (which isn't surprising given we can do that now).

So it systems were advanced enough to detect sound underwater but not advanced enough to detect the actual whales? Am I the only one not understanding the logic behind Rochey's idea here?

Yet it's not a good idea to **** off the people you're trying to find by screwing with their homeworld.

Only if you're pissing off people who aren't violent in nature, like humpback whales

So unless the probe's builders didn't give a damn about causing damage to other races' planets, the probe obviously didn't recognise that it was taking a bad course of action.

We only know it was bad for humaniods. Besides, if the probe found the whales, the weather would go back to normal, if they didn't find the whales then the loss of less advanced lifeforms isn't that big of a deal.

Or technology, for that matter

The Ba'ku didn't make their technology apparent either, yet they must have still had it.

ChakatBlackstar wrote:Do you even try to answer these ideas yourself? They performed genetic engineering so they could send subspace messages to their homeworld

Sorry, I can't compose a response to this one - I keep cracking up.

Sigged.

So it systems were advanced enough to detect sound underwater but not advanced enough to detect the actual whales? Am I the only one not understanding the logic behind Rochey's idea here?

Yes.

We only know it was bad for humaniods. Besides, if the probe found the whales, the weather would go back to normal

Did you miss the hurricane-force winds the probe was causing - it was trashing the entire planet's ecosystem, and almost certainly killed thousands of people. Think Katrina, only affecting evry coastline in the world.

if they didn't find the whales then the loss of less advanced lifeforms isn't that big of a deal.

You've still provided no evidence whatsoever that the probe was anything more than an interstellar David Attenborough, let alone this new gibberish abour "less advanced lifeforms". Last I checked, humpback whales didn't have starships.

The Ba'ku didn't make their technology apparent either, yet they must have still had it.

The luddites were specifically stated not to use advanced technology, despite having knowlege of it.

Did you miss the hurricane-force winds the probe was causing - it was trashing the entire planet's ecosystem, and almost certainly killed thousands of people. Think Katrina, only affecting evry coastline in the world

Did you miss the part where I said, lower life forms? Clearly the probe didn't consider humans an important species

You've still provided no evidence whatsoever that the probe was anything more than an interstellar David Attenborough, let alone this new gibberish abour "less advanced lifeforms". Last I checked, humpback whales didn't have starships.

Well, who sent the probe then? And the Ba'ku didn't have starships(that we know of) either(at the time we saw them), yet they were no longer on their homeworld.

The luddites were specifically stated not to use advanced technology, despite having knowlege of it

Stop going off on a tangent. They had advanced technology at one point, but didn't use it anymore. Who's to say the humpbacks of Earth weren't along the same lines?