WTF? Dolphins and whales on the E-D?

[Graham Kennedy]

Here's a thought in passing. When Kirk suggested playing a taped response to the probe, Spock objected that they could reproduce "the sounds, but not the language. We would be responding in gibberish."

Spock clearly does not believe that these are simple animal calls; he expects intelligent meaning to be conveyed.

[Mikey]

Good point, GK. While this could have been an assumption on Spock's part and the probe MAY have just been monitoring for evidence of the whales' continued existence, I think we've all learned to trust Spocks hunches in these sutuations.

[Graham Kennedy]

Good point, GK. While this could have been an assumption on Spock's part and the probe MAY have just been monitoring for evidence of the whales' continued existence, I think we've all learned to trust Spocks hunches in these sutuations.

Every single aspect of the way the whales are treated in that movie implies that they are intelligent, sentient beings. You can argue the case that they aren't, but only by arguing against all the evidence rather than with it.

[Sionnach Glic]

No reason you know of.

Unless you can provide a reason, it still stands.

But we've seen several species able to communicate through space, such as Q,

The Q are the ultimate unknowns. Bad example.

as well as the Tholians,

Already adressed this ages ago. Try and keep up.

and the numerous living/organic starships we've seen over the years.

Which are nothing like any terrestrial organism, let alone whales.

You're theory requires a comm system unlike any we've seen in Trek. Unless you have an example of a similar comm setup that I missed.

None that I can remember off the top of my head. But that's irrelevant: a sufficiently advanced system could do it. The probe seemed highly advanced, no reason it couldn't do it.
And I could just as easily ask you for an instance of a carbon-based organism exhibiting a susbpace connection, you know.

Assuming that's how the Bounty(I assume that's the Klingon ship you speak of) even received the song in the first place.

No reason it couldn't have worked. As Seafort pointed out; we have a limited ability to do so now. With a couple of centuries refinement, I can easily see it happening. And everything we know about sensors in Trek seem to support it.
Also, it's a far simpler and more logical explaination than yours.

While your sensor idea might work for detecting their song that would still leave two questions unanswered. 1)Why was the probe singing if it wasn't using its comms, and 2)How did the whales receive the probe's signal?

Who ever said the probe wasn't using its comms? It's how the Bounty picked it up that's the question.

Well, I have provided scenes and reasons that point more towards my theories then yours.

Only if you ignore Occam's Razor.

Now I'm asking you to support your theory with something more then just logic.

Funny, I was just about to ask you to show how your theory is anyway logical at all.

Given that nothing contradicts it, logic is fine for basing my theory on. As someone else said; we've never seen toilets on the ships, yet obviously they are there, as logic dictates that they are.

You can keep repeating yourself all you like, but I'm not backing down till you come up with something more solid then a theory based on nothing more then logic.

And you can keep ignoring logical principles all you like, but the fact of the matter is that this debate is already over. My theory is workable. Occam's Razor declares it the most likely theory. That's all that matters.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Which are nothing like any terrestrial organism, let alone whales.

When did you become an expert on xenobiology?

Who ever said the probe wasn't using its comms?

Try and keep up old man

It's how the Bounty picked it up that's the question.

They picked it up on the comm channels, we already established that.

Funny, I was just about to ask you to show how your theory is anyway logical at all.

well, we know subspace communication is the only known method of long-range communications and clearly the probe was expecting an answer back as it approached earth, otherwise it wouldn't be logical for it to be wasting energy transmitting the whale song as far out as the Klingon Neutral Zone. And the whales have no mechanical assistance that we know of.

the fact of the matter is that this debate is already over.

Well, as long as you're open minded about it.

[Sionnach Glic]

When did you become an expert on xenobiology?

I don't need to be. It's quite apparent they're nothing alike.

They picked it up on the comm channels, we already established that.

No, you keep claiming that despite logic, the lack of precedence and any supporting facts other than "the comms officer picked it up".

well, we know subspace communication is the only known method of long-range communications and clearly the probe was expecting an answer back as it approached earth, otherwise it wouldn't be logical for it to be wasting energy transmitting the whale song as far out as the Klingon Neutral Zone.

It wouldn't be logical for it to start wrecking the planet either, but it did that too.
Even if they were expecting to get an answer of some kind, that just points to some damn good sensors on that thing for being able to detect vibrations at that range.

Well, as long as you're open minded about it.

Once again, I have to congratulate you on your astounding ability to completely ignore the actual point of a paragraph.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

No, you keep claiming that despite logic, the lack of precedence and any supporting facts other than "the comms officer picked it up".

What's not logical about the communications officer recieving a communication?

It wouldn't be logical for it to start wrecking the planet either, but it did that too.

You're assuming that it was wreaking the planet. It was making temperory alterations as it searched for the whales. There is no reason to assume that it's intents were destructive

Even if they were expecting to get an answer of some kind, that just points to some damn good sensors on that thing for being able to detect vibrations at that range.

If their sensors were that good, wouldn't they have been able to detect that there were no whales on Earth without altering the weather patterns

Once again, I have to congratulate you on your astounding ability to completely ignore the actual point of a paragraph

The point was quite clear. You belive there is no possible way you're wrong and nothing I or anyone else says will change that. In fact that's the second time you've said something to that effect.

[Sionnach Glic]

What's not logical about the communications officer recieving a communication?

Oh, that part's logical enough. It's the rest of your points that are completely illogical. Therefore, Uhura's involvement must be rationalised. Since it can be rationalised with little effort, my theory remains workable. And since my theory is simplest, it is the most likely one.

If their sensors were that good, wouldn't they have been able to detect that there were no whales on Earth without altering the weather patterns

Even if their sensors were sub-Trek standard they should have been able to detect the presence or absence of whales. The fact that they never turned to their sensors to look for the whales indicates that it didn't have any AI, and was probably following a simple "send transmission, get answer" program to look for them.

The point was quite clear. You belive there is no possible way you're wrong and nothing I or anyone else says will change that. In fact that's the second time you've said something to that effect.

The simplest theory, my theory, is that this was a product of the probe itself (not surprising given its aparent advancement). Your subspace connection theory requires the addition of an outside unknown (the subspace connection) with little evidence to support it, and said evidence does not necessarily contradict my own theory.
Both theories fit the facts, and both theories are workable. However, given that yours requires an outside unknown to work, and mine doesn't, Occam's Razor declares my theory to be the correct one.

Refute the above, or concede.

[Captain Seafort]

Refute the above, or concede.

I'm betting the answer to this will be option three - more bullsh*tting. Any takers?

[Sionnach Glic]

Oh, and just so shi can't try just that:
Blackstar, if you don't give a straight answer to the aforementioned question and instead go off on a tangent or otherwise ignore it, I'm taking that as a concesion.

[Teaos]

*crickets*

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Therefore, Uhura's involvement must be rationalised. Since it can be rationalised with little effort, my theory remains workable. And since my theory is simplest, it is the most likely one.

So by rationalizing Uhura's involvement that makes your theory the simpler one?

Even if their sensors were sub-Trek standard they should have been able to detect the presence or absence of whales. The fact that they never turned to their sensors to look for the whales indicates that it didn't have any AI, and was probably following a simple "send transmission, get answer" program to look for them

Now that's quite idiotic. The logical reason for them not using their sensors is quite simple, they didn't have any(or they were relatively useless for this kind of search). That would be the simplest explanation without introducing unknown factors, and you are so fond of that kind of stuff.
And the fact that the probe seemed to be having a conversation with the whales indicates that it did have an AI. We saw the probe have a two-way conversation with the whales, indicating some sort of intelligence on the probe's part.

The simplest theory, my theory, is that communication was possible by the Whale's abilities. Your advanced sensor theory and "send and receive" search method contradicts what we've seen on-screen and has no evidence to support it.
Both theories fit the facts, and both theories are workable. However, given that yours contradicts on-screen evidence and requires excessive rationalization Occam's Razor declares my theory to be the correct one.

Refute the above, or concede.

Rochey, I'm laughing at the superior intellect

[Sionnach Glic]

So by rationalizing Uhura's involvement that makes your theory the simpler one?

Yes, as it leads to less factors in the theory overall and eliminates an outside unknown.

Now that's quite idiotic. The logical reason for them not using their sensors is quite simple, they didn't have any(or they were relatively useless for this kind of search).

It's obvious they have sensors, otherwise they'd never get to the planets in the first place. Depending on how long it took to get an answer at Planet A, Planet B would have moved by quite a large amount.

That would be the simplest explanation without introducing unknown factors, and you are so fond of that kind of stuff.

Except you now have to introduce the whales' subspace abilities for the scenario to work as seen, which is -you guessed it- an unknown factor. The presence of an unknown factor invalidates a theory according to Occam's Razor, hence my theory remains the most valid.

And the fact that the probe seemed to be having a conversation with the whales indicates that it did have an AI. We saw the probe have a two-way conversation with the whales, indicating some sort of intelligence on the probe's part.

Or it had a bunch of preprogrammed questions and responses. We can build machines now with such abilities, so it's no great stretch to imagine one turning up in the future.

The simplest theory, my theory, is that communication was possible by the Whale's abilities.

Wrong, as it introduces the ability for whales to shoot subspace beams out their asses, which is a complete uknown in addition to being completely unprecedented and never indicated before and having no reason at all to come about.
Therefore the simplest theory is the one which eliminates this ability. Ergo, my theory is simplest.

Your advanced sensor theory and "send and receive" search method contradicts what we've seen on-screen and has no evidence to support it.

I love how you keep saying it contradicts what we see without actualy pointing out one thing it contradicts.

Both theories fit the facts, and both theories are workable.

Correct.

However, given that yours contradicts on-screen evidence

Back up that statement.

and requires excessive rationalization Occam's Razor declares my theory to be the correct one.

Incorrect. Occam's Razor has nothing to say about rationalisation. As long as the rationalisation fits the facts, the theory is still counted as valid.
As my theory does not have an unknown factor in it, Occam's Razor declares it the correct one.

Still waiting for that concesion.

Refute the above, or concede.

All too easy.

Rochey, I'm laughing at the superior intellect

And I'm laughing at your inability to understand simple things such as the principle of logical parismony.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Rochey, either provide evidence to back up your theorys or concede the point. I have evidence which I've provided. Your's is all speculation.

It's obvious they have sensors, otherwise they'd never get to the planets in the first place. Depending on how long it took to get an answer at Planet A, Planet B would have moved by quite a large amount.

Or it was launched with a preprogramed course that accounted for interstllar drift. It wouldn't be too difficult.

Except you now have to introduce the whales' subspace abilities for the scenario to work as seen, which is -you guessed it- an unknown factor. The presence of an unknown factor invalidates a theory according to Occam's Razor, hence my theory remains the most valid.

Your's also introduces an unknown factor, several in fact. Such as the probe having sensors that can detect whale songs but not detect whales.

Or it had a bunch of preprogrammed questions and responses. We can build machines now with such abilities, so it's no great stretch to imagine one turning up in the future.

Point to you

Wrong, as it introduces the ability for whales to shoot subspace beams out their asses

Well...they did move to stand on their y-axis pointing their rear towards the probe if I remember correctly. I'd assume it would be from the brain or something but who knows?

which is a complete uknown in addition to being completely unprecedented and never indicated before and having no reason at all to come about.

Well, it would allow them to make long-range communications

Therefore the simplest theory is the one which eliminates this ability. Ergo, my theory is simplest.

The simplist theory isn't always the correct theory.

I love how you keep saying it contradicts what we see without actualy pointing out one thing it contradicts.

Yes I have, several times. Try to keep up.

Back up that statement.

I already did. I'm getting sick of repeating myself.

As long as the rationalisation fits the facts, the theory is still counted as valid.

What facts? Your theory is all baseless conjecture.

Occam's Razor declares it the correct one.

And who made Occam in charge of this discussion?

Rochey, either provide evidence to back up your theorys or concede the point. I have evidence which I've provided. Your's is all baseless speculation.

[Sionnach Glic]

Rochey, either provide evidence to back up your theorys or concede the point. I have evidence which I've provided. Your's is all speculation.

Incorrect: I've given evidence, it's the exact same as yours. It merely leads to a different conclusion. But since you seem to need everything else spelled out to you, here it is again:

We see the probe detecting in some way or another the whales vocalising. Since I'm trying to avoid introducing an unknown, I take this as the sensors picking up the vibrations in the water caused by the whales' singing. We know that Trek sensors are capable of such things, and we can do that to a limited extent now. Therefore we know that this is possible. Given that whales can't naturaly communicate with something in orbit without the introduction of an unknown, this is the simplest theory, and therefore the most valid one.

But then why didn't the probe simply scan the planet for the whales? Well, that's simple to figure out as well. The probe was probably fitted out with a simple AI, pre-programmed with a set of queries and responses. As such, it was using its sensors only to look for a response, and didn't have the capacity to think "well, I'm not getting an answer, so maybe I should check if they're actualy there". This is evidenced by the fact that it didn't realise that its attempts were screwing with out planet. It didn't have the capacity to think "oh, wait, I'm fucking the planet up and probably killing all the people I'm trying to talk to".

But you suggest that perhaps the probe wasn't fitted with sensors at all. While that's certainly a possibility, it stretches belief a bit that someone would go through all the trouble and expense of creating such a device and send it off without any way of detecting objects that my cross its path. If it really was only programmed with the locations of where each planet would be at any given moment, it'd be completely blind to, say, an asteroid on a collision course with it. That'd be a great way to see a lot of money and resources go up in smoke. Therefore common sense would dictate that it would have some sort of sensors. Indeed, the presence of sensors is further evidenced by the fact that it was able to detect the whales' singing.

Your's also introduces an unknown factor, several in fact. Such as the probe having sensors that can detect whale songs but not detect whales.

The sensors are not an unknown factor when you factor in the lack of an advanced AI system. There's no unknowns in mine at all, in fact.

Well, it would allow them to make long-range communications

By all means, explain why the ability to contact something in orbit using a method that organic creatures cannot detect would come about.

The simplist theory isn't always the correct theory.

It is when it fits the facts and the opposing theories introduce unknown factors.

And who made Occam in charge of this discussion?

No one. It's a simple logical principle that's always in play.