Star Wars Sim OOC Discussion Thread
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Reliant121
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Re: Star Wars Sim OOC Discussion Thread
I'm very much up for a game that allows for a more stunted growth than there was in the Alpha/Beta games. Allows for a much longer and more drawn out game.
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Deepcrush
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Re: Star Wars Sim OOC Discussion Thread
Well we did play the alpha for nearly a year I think.
Jinsei wa cho no yume, shi no tsubasa no bitodesu
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Tyyr
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Re: Star Wars Sim OOC Discussion Thread
I did start out on the level of the rest of you. The entire problem is that while I did everything I could to start a fight with you ya'll did everything you could to avoid one. What was about to happen was something you had every opportunity to avoid but didn't. The "wankout" was nothing more than ya'll reaping the fruits of a long series of increasingly horrible decisions.Yeah, the wankout killed the last few turns. Wouldn't have been so bad if you were on level with the rest of us.
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BigJKU316
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Re: Star Wars Sim OOC Discussion Thread
Someday when I get time I will post up the power curves for each power and alliance block. For now I will give you the final turn numbers. GDP is non-trade adjusted so trade is on top of this and the Taiidan had 0 trade.
Taiidan: 111,768,000 combat power, GDP 76 million
Federation: 72,717,000 combat power, GDP 88 million
Gorn: 12,131,000 combat power, GDP 33 million
Tueri: 16,125,000 combat power, GDP 18 million
Total ISA: 100,937,000, GDP 139 million
Cardassian: 18,748,000 combat power, GDP 21 million
Breen: 22,884,000, GDP 12.5 million
Klingon: 32,836,000, GDP 73 million
Alliance Total: 74,468,000, GDP 106.5 million
That is where the game ended. Here are the same numbers for the turn the Taiidan attacked the Klingons.
Taiidan: 45,238,000 combat power, GDP 64 million
Federation: 54,125,000 combat power, GDP 82 million
Gorn: 9,080,000 combat power, GDP 17.51 million
Cardassian: 13,000,000 combat power, GDP 26 million
Total ISA: 76,205,000, GDP 125.5 million
Tueri: 6.6 million combat power, GDP 15 million
Breen: 9,766,000, GDP 12.5 million
Klingon: 14,270,000*, GDP 73 million
*The Klingons had just sold to the Ferengi around 5 million in combat power. Prior to the Romulan/Klingon War their combat strength was 23.2 million.
Alliance Total: 24,210,000*, GDP 52 million
*Pre-war total was 33ish million, also keep in mind both the Cardassian's and Gorn saw their fleets run down in that conflict equally as badly. Nearly 30 million in total combat capability was wiped out in the Romulan/Klingon War which started after the Taiidan were created and scaled for the most part.
I am providing these simply to give everyone an idea of how things happened. Those are the factual numbers within a few hundred thousand that anyone could verify from their sheets. Here is my opinion of what happened with each power. No one get mad, this is more a lessons learned for all sides. No need for shouting or recrimination at this point.
Taiidan- My big mistake here was that I did not give them Quantum Torpedoes to start with when they were scaled. They are a huge leap in firepower and they were almost certain to get them quickly. When they did their fleet power started to balloon rapidly. They were designed to be able to take on any one alliance by themselves and were scaled basically at the mid-point between the ISA and Khitomer groups when created. That changed due to the Romulan War quite a bit though. As many suspected, and some began looking for, they did have a home area located well to the edge of the largest map. They were bigger than any one player but had a restriction that basically prevented them from taking on any allies at any time. Both alliances had more population than the Taiidan and equal or better ship production capacity. Someday I will post the map but I don't have it with me right now.
The Allies had the Taiidan beat at the end of the 1st War before the CU up and committed genocide which politically was impossible for several powers to accept (Federation, Tueri, Gorn). It would have wrecked the allied fleet to do it but the Allies had other fleets and would have had survivors.
Federation- The Federation fleet grew too much too early and got stuck in an economic trap (partly because expansion was not allowed early and was a later feature). Overall the fleet was well positioned to deal with this threat but had too many ships in reserve to deal with it quickly. It also was quite spread out due to a variety of enemies and responsibilities. Overall I think the player would agree they got a bit lax with modernization and were trying to pull an F-22 type plan to skip a generation and got caught short on modern combatants at the start of the war by aiming very high in R&D at times. This was largely corrected by the 2nd go round and the Federation fleet was pulling together nicely for a final conflict. Probably the most organized nation in the game but at times clumsy diplomatically. A diplomatic error after the 1st Taiidan war, as the ISA basically endorsed the taking of CU space by the Taiidan, effectively sealed the fate of the CU and by default the Breen.
Klingon- The Klingons were a great enigma in this game. Very powerful but with a fleet kept quite low to facilitate economic development. The sale of most of their cruisers right prior to this war was just flat ass bad luck. Never felt worse about any moment of the game than that conversation because I knew it was going to suck and could not really say anything. The Klingon fleet was underbuilt given the economy. Indeed it was underbuilt going into the Klingon-Romulan War. The player noticed this and started a new cruiser design and new battle cruiser design during that period. Both had entered service right at the outset of the Taiidan War and the Klingon fleet was growing rapidly having doubled in power in that short timespan even accounting for war losses to ships and shipyards. The extra cash each turn was a product of a fleet built below what it could have been. With that GDP and Tax rate it could have been 2-3 times as large fairly eaisly. Still, had the game rolled on 20 more years without any major wars the Klingons would have probably been the major power in the game. Probably the longest reaching vision of any player, the Klingons were on a 50 year plan that was solid.
Romulan- I didn't post up their stats but the Romulans made a mistake early of not arming to the teeth and just never recovered, despite their best efforts to do so. That was compounded by not taking the QonoS suicide plot seriously enough and having forces caught in limbo. They made a go of it with massive backing from the CU and Gorn but it was always a one shot deal as they could not replace losses and the Klingons could build 600 new destroyers every year plus other ships. This weakness was responsible for a lot of the early instability in the game in my opinion.
Breen- The Breen were very well run for the most part. They fell into the economic trap early in the game but pulled out of it and for their resources had assembled a nice fleet that was rapidly improving. They made no real mistakes but just were not made for that sort of roughhousing as was present at the end of the game, at least on their own hook. They were a victim of big power politics at the end.
Gorn- The Gorn had good and bad periods. For a long time their fleet was a wreck, not getting nearly enough attention. This made them weaker than they should have been given their large trade income. This was being rectified late. Not an easy power to play things went fairly well but the Gorn were as involved as the rest of the ISA in a very bad diplomatic decision that sealed the deal for the Taiidan really.
Tueri- The Tueri were my most up and down player. The good is that they were involved in lots of action. Some players never got in major domestic trouble because they did very little. The Tueri were all over the map in this regard. By the end they settled down and were producing excellent ships and had a nice little nation. It goes without saying though that they were part of the strange diplomatic decision by the ISA prior to the second war though.
Cardassian- Ahh, the Cardassians. Economically the CU was a wreck almost from beginning to end. Resources, money, debt. You name it and they struggled with it at times. The fleet was a mixed bag of powerful ships, old ships, crappy ships and ICBM's for lack of a better term. The CU was involved in two of the three most important events (Wormhole, Attack on QonoS and Genocide of Ferengi). The order pulled off the attack on QonoS after buying off a Romulan captain and getting an absurd run of rolls (like 3 75+ rolls in a row or more IIRC). They then killed the whole crew that had defected. This was probably a mistaken concept as the idea was, I think, to pull the RSE into the ISA. Instead they got obliterated.
Lessons Learned on my end
Tech Transfer- Tech transfer has to be limited for the game to function correctly. I was silent on the issue in most rules and allowed basically clean transfer of tech. The Breen would sell the Klingons Q-Torps and after re-designing ships they had them. The same worked with all other powers and techs. This was a minor annoyance until the Taiidan came along. They overran the Ferengi, who had Quantum torpedoes and they started refitting ships to carry them which accounted for most of their combat power increase. Since the precedent was set I was sort of stuck with it.
Ship cost- We ended up with a lot of destroyer spam. I think I figured out how to solve this in the SW sim and hope to apply it here. Cost needs to be driven by capability to some degree rather than just size. Attempts to correct this later were only partially successful.
Diplomatic Relations/Equality- Everyone wants to "win" for the most part. The original setup necessitated role players. In Alpha everyone grouped around one of two major powers, creating a cold war that could have gone on forever really. Had there been a third major powers as the Romulans were intended to be then it might have been different. Some smaller powers also clearly were not happy being smaller. We will have more equal powers next time, just to give everyone a fighting chance. As it was setup the big powers were to have a three sided problem in the Feds, Rommies and Klingons while the smaller powers, the CU, Breen, Ferengi, Tholians and Gorn initially were supposed to play their little games, with occasional major power interference. That was too ambitious and we will play more of a board game setup next time.
NO GODDAMMED MOTHER-FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT CLOAKING DEVICES- Enough said. This made managing movements a nightmare. They are going to be wiped from the next version of this game by an edict from on high. Period. They added nothing but frustration to events.
Taiidan: 111,768,000 combat power, GDP 76 million
Federation: 72,717,000 combat power, GDP 88 million
Gorn: 12,131,000 combat power, GDP 33 million
Tueri: 16,125,000 combat power, GDP 18 million
Total ISA: 100,937,000, GDP 139 million
Cardassian: 18,748,000 combat power, GDP 21 million
Breen: 22,884,000, GDP 12.5 million
Klingon: 32,836,000, GDP 73 million
Alliance Total: 74,468,000, GDP 106.5 million
That is where the game ended. Here are the same numbers for the turn the Taiidan attacked the Klingons.
Taiidan: 45,238,000 combat power, GDP 64 million
Federation: 54,125,000 combat power, GDP 82 million
Gorn: 9,080,000 combat power, GDP 17.51 million
Cardassian: 13,000,000 combat power, GDP 26 million
Total ISA: 76,205,000, GDP 125.5 million
Tueri: 6.6 million combat power, GDP 15 million
Breen: 9,766,000, GDP 12.5 million
Klingon: 14,270,000*, GDP 73 million
*The Klingons had just sold to the Ferengi around 5 million in combat power. Prior to the Romulan/Klingon War their combat strength was 23.2 million.
Alliance Total: 24,210,000*, GDP 52 million
*Pre-war total was 33ish million, also keep in mind both the Cardassian's and Gorn saw their fleets run down in that conflict equally as badly. Nearly 30 million in total combat capability was wiped out in the Romulan/Klingon War which started after the Taiidan were created and scaled for the most part.
I am providing these simply to give everyone an idea of how things happened. Those are the factual numbers within a few hundred thousand that anyone could verify from their sheets. Here is my opinion of what happened with each power. No one get mad, this is more a lessons learned for all sides. No need for shouting or recrimination at this point.
Taiidan- My big mistake here was that I did not give them Quantum Torpedoes to start with when they were scaled. They are a huge leap in firepower and they were almost certain to get them quickly. When they did their fleet power started to balloon rapidly. They were designed to be able to take on any one alliance by themselves and were scaled basically at the mid-point between the ISA and Khitomer groups when created. That changed due to the Romulan War quite a bit though. As many suspected, and some began looking for, they did have a home area located well to the edge of the largest map. They were bigger than any one player but had a restriction that basically prevented them from taking on any allies at any time. Both alliances had more population than the Taiidan and equal or better ship production capacity. Someday I will post the map but I don't have it with me right now.
The Allies had the Taiidan beat at the end of the 1st War before the CU up and committed genocide which politically was impossible for several powers to accept (Federation, Tueri, Gorn). It would have wrecked the allied fleet to do it but the Allies had other fleets and would have had survivors.
Federation- The Federation fleet grew too much too early and got stuck in an economic trap (partly because expansion was not allowed early and was a later feature). Overall the fleet was well positioned to deal with this threat but had too many ships in reserve to deal with it quickly. It also was quite spread out due to a variety of enemies and responsibilities. Overall I think the player would agree they got a bit lax with modernization and were trying to pull an F-22 type plan to skip a generation and got caught short on modern combatants at the start of the war by aiming very high in R&D at times. This was largely corrected by the 2nd go round and the Federation fleet was pulling together nicely for a final conflict. Probably the most organized nation in the game but at times clumsy diplomatically. A diplomatic error after the 1st Taiidan war, as the ISA basically endorsed the taking of CU space by the Taiidan, effectively sealed the fate of the CU and by default the Breen.
Klingon- The Klingons were a great enigma in this game. Very powerful but with a fleet kept quite low to facilitate economic development. The sale of most of their cruisers right prior to this war was just flat ass bad luck. Never felt worse about any moment of the game than that conversation because I knew it was going to suck and could not really say anything. The Klingon fleet was underbuilt given the economy. Indeed it was underbuilt going into the Klingon-Romulan War. The player noticed this and started a new cruiser design and new battle cruiser design during that period. Both had entered service right at the outset of the Taiidan War and the Klingon fleet was growing rapidly having doubled in power in that short timespan even accounting for war losses to ships and shipyards. The extra cash each turn was a product of a fleet built below what it could have been. With that GDP and Tax rate it could have been 2-3 times as large fairly eaisly. Still, had the game rolled on 20 more years without any major wars the Klingons would have probably been the major power in the game. Probably the longest reaching vision of any player, the Klingons were on a 50 year plan that was solid.
Romulan- I didn't post up their stats but the Romulans made a mistake early of not arming to the teeth and just never recovered, despite their best efforts to do so. That was compounded by not taking the QonoS suicide plot seriously enough and having forces caught in limbo. They made a go of it with massive backing from the CU and Gorn but it was always a one shot deal as they could not replace losses and the Klingons could build 600 new destroyers every year plus other ships. This weakness was responsible for a lot of the early instability in the game in my opinion.
Breen- The Breen were very well run for the most part. They fell into the economic trap early in the game but pulled out of it and for their resources had assembled a nice fleet that was rapidly improving. They made no real mistakes but just were not made for that sort of roughhousing as was present at the end of the game, at least on their own hook. They were a victim of big power politics at the end.
Gorn- The Gorn had good and bad periods. For a long time their fleet was a wreck, not getting nearly enough attention. This made them weaker than they should have been given their large trade income. This was being rectified late. Not an easy power to play things went fairly well but the Gorn were as involved as the rest of the ISA in a very bad diplomatic decision that sealed the deal for the Taiidan really.
Tueri- The Tueri were my most up and down player. The good is that they were involved in lots of action. Some players never got in major domestic trouble because they did very little. The Tueri were all over the map in this regard. By the end they settled down and were producing excellent ships and had a nice little nation. It goes without saying though that they were part of the strange diplomatic decision by the ISA prior to the second war though.
Cardassian- Ahh, the Cardassians. Economically the CU was a wreck almost from beginning to end. Resources, money, debt. You name it and they struggled with it at times. The fleet was a mixed bag of powerful ships, old ships, crappy ships and ICBM's for lack of a better term. The CU was involved in two of the three most important events (Wormhole, Attack on QonoS and Genocide of Ferengi). The order pulled off the attack on QonoS after buying off a Romulan captain and getting an absurd run of rolls (like 3 75+ rolls in a row or more IIRC). They then killed the whole crew that had defected. This was probably a mistaken concept as the idea was, I think, to pull the RSE into the ISA. Instead they got obliterated.
Lessons Learned on my end
Tech Transfer- Tech transfer has to be limited for the game to function correctly. I was silent on the issue in most rules and allowed basically clean transfer of tech. The Breen would sell the Klingons Q-Torps and after re-designing ships they had them. The same worked with all other powers and techs. This was a minor annoyance until the Taiidan came along. They overran the Ferengi, who had Quantum torpedoes and they started refitting ships to carry them which accounted for most of their combat power increase. Since the precedent was set I was sort of stuck with it.
Ship cost- We ended up with a lot of destroyer spam. I think I figured out how to solve this in the SW sim and hope to apply it here. Cost needs to be driven by capability to some degree rather than just size. Attempts to correct this later were only partially successful.
Diplomatic Relations/Equality- Everyone wants to "win" for the most part. The original setup necessitated role players. In Alpha everyone grouped around one of two major powers, creating a cold war that could have gone on forever really. Had there been a third major powers as the Romulans were intended to be then it might have been different. Some smaller powers also clearly were not happy being smaller. We will have more equal powers next time, just to give everyone a fighting chance. As it was setup the big powers were to have a three sided problem in the Feds, Rommies and Klingons while the smaller powers, the CU, Breen, Ferengi, Tholians and Gorn initially were supposed to play their little games, with occasional major power interference. That was too ambitious and we will play more of a board game setup next time.
NO GODDAMMED MOTHER-FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT CLOAKING DEVICES- Enough said. This made managing movements a nightmare. They are going to be wiped from the next version of this game by an edict from on high. Period. They added nothing but frustration to events.
Re: Star Wars Sim OOC Discussion Thread
Yeah, Cloaks were annoying (especially as I failed at really using them).And I agree fully on my mistake. After we got into 1 year turns, I realized (with some espionage) that I was way behind militarily. The rest was eternal catch up.
As for the wars, either Deep went easy on me, or I did pretty good with what I had (crap).
And the whole Quonos mess... if I had followed my gut, things would have been very different. Messy... er.
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Deepcrush
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Re: Star Wars Sim OOC Discussion Thread
Tiidan starting at over 100m CR... yeah... really the same as the rest of us... fucking bullshit... 
I was just trying to pick a fight, I didn't really care about taking worlds until you ran away. So I invading thinking maybe you'd come forward to fight me.stitch626 wrote:As for the wars, either Deep went easy on me, or I did pretty good with what I had (crap).
And the whole Quonos mess... if I had followed my gut, things would have been very different. Messy... er.
Jinsei wa cho no yume, shi no tsubasa no bitodesu
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Sonic Glitch
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Re: Star Wars Sim OOC Discussion Thread
You seem to have missed a key phrase here, I'll make it bigger so you can read itDeepcrush wrote:Tiidan starting at over 100m CR... yeah... really the same as the rest of us... fucking bullshit...
:BigJKU316 wrote:That is where the game ended.
This is from the beginning
BigJKU316 wrote:Here are the same numbers for the turn the Taiidan attacked the Klingons.
Taiidan: 45,238,000 combat power, GDP 64 million
"All this has happened before --"
"But it doesn't have to happen again. Not if we make up our minds to change. Take a different path. Right here, right now."
"But it doesn't have to happen again. Not if we make up our minds to change. Take a different path. Right here, right now."
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Deepcrush
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Re: Star Wars Sim OOC Discussion Thread
Eh, still doesn't help it at all.
Jinsei wa cho no yume, shi no tsubasa no bitodesu
Re: Star Wars Sim OOC Discussion Thread
Oh, and BTW, the Sheliak kept the death devices, I don't know if anyone knew, or cared, but I really felt like going about and start to blow up major planets.
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Tsukiyumi
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Re: Star Wars Sim OOC Discussion Thread
I knew.Nickswitz wrote:Oh, and BTW, the Sheliak kept the death devices, I don't know if anyone knew, or cared, but I really felt like going about and start to blow up major planets.
Had a nice invasion fleet ready for you, until the Taiidan started moving again.
There is only one way of avoiding the war – that is the overthrow of this society. However, as we are too weak for this task, the war is inevitable. -L. Trotsky, 1939
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Reliant121
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Re: Star Wars Sim OOC Discussion Thread
I'd like to claim to having some amazing technology hiding in my homely purple cloud but...I didn't.
Such is the life of an insignificant ship broker.
Such is the life of an insignificant ship broker.
Re: Star Wars Sim OOC Discussion Thread
Yeah, the only thing I had was Genesis. And Tsuki, for me that would have been my goal. As the Sheliak, I made them so that they thought they were some sort of protector of the Galaxy, willing to do anything to keep the Galaxy from killing itself. So if worst came to worst I would have started blowing up planets making everyone blow me up.
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Tsukiyumi
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Re: Star Wars Sim OOC Discussion Thread
I was planning a pre-emptive strike with 500 Breen Monitors.
Mass: 250,000 kt
CR: 5,785
Mass: 250,000 kt
CR: 5,785
There is only one way of avoiding the war – that is the overthrow of this society. However, as we are too weak for this task, the war is inevitable. -L. Trotsky, 1939
Re: Star Wars Sim OOC Discussion Thread
He had enough devices to blow up every planet in any one empire, and then some.
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Tsukiyumi
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Re: Star Wars Sim OOC Discussion Thread
Indeed. And how would they be deployed, exactly?stitch626 wrote:He had enough devices to blow up every planet in any one empire, and then some.
There is only one way of avoiding the war – that is the overthrow of this society. However, as we are too weak for this task, the war is inevitable. -L. Trotsky, 1939