STID review/discussion for those who've seen it SPOILERS!!!

Discussion of the new run of Star Trek XI+ movies and any spinoffs
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STID review/discussion for those who've seen it SPOILERS!!!

Post by CaptainQuantum »

THIS THREAD IS FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE SEEN THE MOVIE OR DON'T CARE ABOUT SPOILERS. YOU'VE BEEN WARNED.

So Star Trek has an official release date in Hong Kong of 16 May but for some reason there were previews this weekend so I nabbed a ticket. Not even a full cinema! Hopefully not a bad sign...

Anyway given it has been out in the UK for a week and now it is out in Australia, I thought we should have a thread for review/discussion. I'll start.

Generally, I really liked the movie as a whole. I felt perhaps it wasn't quite as good as the last one but it was still very enjoyable.

I was kind of dreading the re-use of Khan but I have to say I was very happy with that aspect of it. He was the same villain in an very different plot. Putting him on the same side as our heroes for a good amount of time was an interesting choice and I think it worked pretty well. Perhaps we didn't get as many grand speeches or outright menace (although credit to Cumberbatch, once he took over the bridge of the prototype ship he really let his insane rage boil over).

I also liked the little parallels between this and WOK. I suspect some people will get upset over it, maybe it feels a little forced given how well we know those scenes, but I think the whole point they were making was that Kirk and Spock would've chosen to make the same sacrifice for each other, and here they are in an alternate universe doing exactly that.

Visually stunning again of course. The actors were brilliant again of course. God Zachary Quinto is good as Spock. So pleased they got Cumberbatch to do the villain, I'm a huge fan of Sherlock and for me he really nailed the character - Khan is not outright evil, he just considers himself above any moral code that might apply to lesser beings. It might be sacrilege but I actually preferred his straightforward calm menace to Montalban's grandstanding.

Ok, now to the nits.

I felt the plot overreached a little. We all like a movie with lots of twists and turns, but there was just so much going on it felt like we never had time to take a breath and think about what was happening. Not just the action scenes but the character development scenes packed a lot in and it just felt like they could have streamlined the plot a little.

I thought the scene with Spock Prime was not only unnecessary but a bit insulting to the Abrams Universe crew. Spock Prime and co took down Khan without any clues, why can't their counterparts in this universe? Are they going to give Spock Prime a call everytime they meet a new bad guy? "Yeah, Harry Mudd, he's a pain in the ass." "Yeah, don't feed the tribbles."

The blood thing at the end was a total deus ex machina but I will let it pass because it saves us from the next film "Star Trek Into Search for Kirk". I bet the writers of Wrath of Khan wish they'd thought of it.

I don't really like the new Klingon look. Were those foreheads CGI? There was something weird about them. Maybe the piercings. Perhaps we could ascribe them to the Klingon Augment Virus from Enterprise. I did like the helmets, they were badass, but I thought DS9 pretty much perfected the Klingon costume so I wasn't too keen on the redesign.

Again with the superfast warp. What was it, five minutes or so to Kronos? I'm sure there is some room for interpretation about how long it took but it was pretty damn fast. Obviously they thought about the issue following the last film and thought, no, were going to prioritise drama over Trek physics. Nothing wrong with that but I chuckle to think how some people on these boards are probably going to get all steamed over it.

And are we okay with John Harrison transwarp beaming from earth to Kronos in one step? If that's possible using a device the size of a suitcase, why bother with starships at all? How hard would it have been to have him get away using a combination of regular warp and a fast ship and track his warp trail to Kronos (assuming Admiral Marcus didn't already know where he was going?) Beaming between distant planets was a tech proposed in an episode of Enterprise, but you knew it would never work in that episode because it would kind of undermine the whole series. Now it turns out it does work, so where does that leave the whole series?

But all in all a very enjoyable and welcome instalment to the series. I would put it up there in the top few Trek films. Can't wait to see it again.

Ok, discuss.
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Re: STID review/discussion for those who've seen it SPOILERS

Post by Graham Kennedy »

Sitting in the cinema, starts in 10mins....
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Re: STID review/discussion for those who've seen it SPOILERS

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I hate you all, I have to wait another 5 days...
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Re: STID review/discussion for those who've seen it SPOILERS

Post by Tinadrin Chelnor »

stitch626 wrote:I hate you all, I have to wait another 5 days...
Seconded, I haven't yet had the chance... Maybe Thursday with any luck, a date with myself.
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Re: STID review/discussion for those who've seen it SPOILERS

Post by Graham Kennedy »

MASSIVE SPOILERIFFIC REVIEW

In short... not quite as good as the last one, but still pretty damned good!
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Re: STID review/discussion for those who've seen it SPOILERS

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Great review Graham. It is a good point you make that this Khan is fundamentally different in that his anger is directed towards Admiral Marcus and Starfleet generally, not Kirk in particular. But I do prefer Cumberbatch's quiet pronouncements of impending doom to Montelban's flowery speeches. I wouldn't be surprised if Montleban's Khan had sent a recommended reading list to Kirk before their confrontation. "Well I'm sorry but if you haven't done the reading then you aren't going to get the most out of my threats."

Speaking of which, did Khan's line from the trailer "You think you are safe. It is an illusion." make it into the film? I can't remember him saying that.
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Re: STID review/discussion for those who've seen it SPOILERS

Post by IanKennedy »

CaptainQuantum wrote:Speaking of which, did Khan's line from the trailer "You think you are safe. It is an illusion." make it into the film? I can't remember him saying that.
I think so. I think it was referring to being at warp.
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Re: STID review/discussion for those who've seen it SPOILERS

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IanKennedy wrote: I think so. I think it was referring to being at warp.
Ah yes, you are correct.
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Re: STID review/discussion for those who've seen it SPOILERS

Post by Graham Kennedy »

Okay, here's a plot detail I really don't quite get, and I don't recall if it was explained and I missed it, or it's a plot hole.

The story goes that Khan is woken up, and forced to design weapons for Admiral Marcus. His people are kept frozen, hostage to his behaviour.

He designs the advanced torpedoes as a way to try and smuggle his people out, one hidden in each casing. However, he says that the plan failed.

He thus escaped to seek vengeance with the London bombing and subsequent attack on Starfleet command.

But Admiral Marcus then sent those same advanced torpedoes to Kirk for him to launch at Khan on Kronos.

So... did Marcus know that Khan's people were in the torpedoes when he sent them? Seems to me that finding out and foiling Khan's escape plan would pretty much have to involve finding the sleepers in the torpedoes. But if so, why send them to Kirk? That seems monumentally stupid. The torpedoes still exploded, so why not pull the sleepers out continue to use his people as leverage against Khan, or if you want rid of them just shoot each one in the head? Or did they not have any fuel with the sleepers inside, in which case what was the point of sending Kirk to shoot them at Kronos anyway since it wouldn't actually do anything to Khan and would just leave Kirk staring at a bunch of torpedoes floating around outside the ship?

Or did Marcus stumble on Khan's plan and somehow not know that the torpedoes had the sleepers in them? Which seems like a really weird plot point, though I suppose it's possible.

Was there an explanation of this that I missed?
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Re: STID review/discussion for those who've seen it SPOILERS

Post by Teaos »

I think the second option, he discoved the plan but was unaware oif all the aspects.
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Re: STID review/discussion for those who've seen it SPOILERS

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Khan tried to smuggle his people away from Marcus custody by hiding them in the torps. Mercus discovered the plan and Khan was forced to flee. He assumend Marcus - as he didn't try to bring Khan back into their business - had killed all his people, and so he sought revenge. But Marcus didn't kill them, but kept onto them for his own reasons (there could be quite a few). So after the bombing and the attack and the knowledge of Khans whereabouts, Marcus devised a secret plan to eliminate Khan and his crew at the same time AND provoking the Klingon Empire to wage war against the Federation, in which case he would have the conflict he desired with state of the art weaponry and a devastating flagship at his disposal, as well as the Federation backing starfleet in building more warships than exploration vessels.

It was also mentioned or hinted, that these torpedoes could travel extreme distances (sounded like an equivalent to an ICBM), far greater than the distance between Kronos and the Enterprise as she was thrown out of warp (you could see Kronos from the ship). The warheads still had warheads and enough fuel to be launched from the ship and travel to the surface of the planet. You don't need much fuel for that, as a planet and a person on foot is hardly a fast moving target, so its just point and shoot. Batteling ships over maximum range with those weapons (they would have been the perfect answer to the Narada) on the other hand requires the torpedo to make course corrections to match the target ships evasive maneuvers, so I assume that out of the question for the 72 with people instead of fuel.
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Re: STID review/discussion for those who've seen it SPOILERS

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Avatar2312 wrote:Marcus devised a secret plan to eliminate Khan and his crew at the same time AND provoking the Klingon Empire to wage war against the Federation, in which case he would have the conflict he desired with state of the art weaponry and a devastating flagship at his disposal, as well as the Federation backing starfleet in building more warships than exploration vessels.
See, this is the thing that's dumb. What's the purpose of killing them all at the same time? What's the upside of killing Khan by basically shooting his own people at him strapped to bombs?

Meanwhile, what's the downside? Well, there's a good chance that Kirk's crew will discover the sleepers and his plan is blown - which is exactly what happened. If things had worked out differently it could even have had Khan get his people back and escape, winning the day, AND blow Marcus to the authorities. That's a LOT of potential risk riding on things and people he has no control over - especially when he gives this mission to the one person he absolutely KNOWS is a maverick who goes around disobeying orders whenever he feels like it!

And all to achieve nothing that he couldn't achieve if he pulled them out the tubes and put a bullet through their head and then sent Kirk and the torpedoes anyway.

The only way I can see it is as a pure exercise in spite. That shooting his own people at him just struck Marcus as a rather nasty joke. Which I could buy, if there was something to indicate that Marcus was that kind of person. But we really don't get to know him well enough to say.
It was also mentioned or hinted, that these torpedoes could travel extreme distances (sounded like an equivalent to an ICBM),
Yes, though they seemed more like the Federation version of a cruise missile to me. A weapon concept very rarely seen in sci-fi, that.
far greater than the distance between Kronos and the Enterprise as she was thrown out of warp (you could see Kronos from the ship). They still had the warheads and enough fuel to be launched from the ship and travel to the surface of the planet. You don't need much fuel for that, as a planet and a person on foot is hardly a fast moving target, so its just point and shoot. Batteling ships over maximum range with those weapons (they would have been the perfect answer to the Narada) on the other hand requires the torpedo to make course corrections to match the target ships evasive maneuvers, so I assume that out of the question for the 72 with people instead of fuel.
The Enterprise wasn't in orbit of Kronos, it was at the edge of Klingon space. Which means that the torpedoes could go that far, even with the sleepers in them. Pull the sleepers out and fill that void with more fuel and who knows how far those things could have gone? All the way from Earth to Kronos, perhaps?

With that and transwarp beaming you have to wonder why they even use ships at all.
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Re: STID review/discussion for those who've seen it SPOILERS

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GrahamKennedy wrote: See, this is the thing that's dumb. What's the purpose of killing them all at the same time? What's the upside of killing Khan by basically shooting his own people at him strapped to bombs?

Meanwhile, what's the downside? Well, there's a good chance that Kirk's crew will discover the sleepers and his plan is blown - which is exactly what happened. If things had worked out differently it could even have had Khan get his people back and escape, winning the day, AND blow Marcus to the authorities. That's a LOT of potential risk riding on things and people he has no control over - especially when he gives this mission to the one person he absolutely KNOWS is a maverick who goes around disobeying orders whenever he feels like it!

And all to achieve nothing that he couldn't achieve if he pulled them out the tubes and put a bullet through their head and then sent Kirk and the torpedoes anyway.

The only way I can see it is as a pure exercise in spite. That shooting his own people at him just struck Marcus as a rather nasty joke. Which I could buy, if there was something to indicate that Marcus was that kind of person. But we really don't get to know him well enough to say.
I won't argue about the logic of that decision, but it seemed that Marcus wanted to get rid of ALL problems that could oppose him in his work at the most conveniant way, where absolutely NOTHING points at him being the mastermind behind it. He counted on Kirk being a loose cannon after Khan killed Pike, but forgot the calming influence of his crew on him - and his daughter. Without that, everything could have worked out fine. Entrprise launches torpedoes, they strike Kronos, killing Khan, killing his crew, the Klingons eliminate the Enterprise, which is stranded, and war follows PLUS he would have made the ultimate joke upon the "barbaric" Khan (and he had a backup plan, which was foiled by Scotty ;-)). It also may be that he couldn't just kill 72 people without anyone from starfleet noticing it. Even the Vengeance was crewed with non starfleet personell (I know. He kept building a giant dreadnought a secret, but as admiral it might be far easier to fake records of a "section 31 shipyard" than killing 72 people in secret by himself).
The Enterprise wasn't in orbit of Kronos, it was at the edge of Klingon space. Which means that the torpedoes could go that far, even with the sleepers in them. Pull the sleepers out and fill that void with more fuel and who knows how far those things could have gone? All the way from Earth to Kronos, perhaps?
This leaves us about "what is the edge of Klingon space". In the very beginning of the previous movie the Kelvin was near a star and 75.000 km out of Klingon space. I don't think in this version of Star Trek, that the Sphere of Influence equals territory, that they don't count interstellar space as belonging to someone (just like international waters on Earth). So being at the edge of Klingon space could be at the edge of the system, while the neutral zone is more like space between star systems in the region of space where Klingon and Federation systems are knit together.
With that and transwarp beaming you have to wonder why they even use ships at all.
I thought about that, too. My opinion is, that there are 3 reasons it is not feasable.
1) You have to know about the place where you rematerialize. So using it for exploration is out of the question. Also there are planets and stellar objects you have to visit with a starship.
2) It is still risky. Scotty mentioned this, when he was talking to Kirk and Spock about the portable single-use device.
3) If an enemy finds a way to block these kind of transports to its ships and planets, the Federation is stranded and without ships also defenseless, when the enemy uses them. So I think it will hardly be used for anything but emergencies and maybe infiltration missions. Furthermore it can't beam you back, so if you use it to get to an enemy installation, you either have to have a ship, that brings you back or beam another device with you, which in turn is left behind when you beam back, giving the enemy insight into the technology, even if you equip it with a self destruct.
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Re: STID review/discussion for those who've seen it SPOILERS

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Avatar2312 wrote:I won't argue about the logic of that decision, but it seemed that Marcus wanted to get rid of ALL problems that could oppose him in his work at the most conveniant way, where absolutely NOTHING points at him being the mastermind behind it. He counted on Kirk being a loose cannon after Khan killed Pike, but forgot the calming influence of his crew on him - and his daughter. Without that, everything could have worked out fine. Entrprise launches torpedoes, they strike Kronos, killing Khan, killing his crew, the Klingons eliminate the Enterprise, which is stranded, and war follows PLUS he would have made the ultimate joke upon the "barbaric" Khan (and he had a backup plan, which was foiled by Scotty ;-)). It also may be that he couldn't just kill 72 people without anyone from starfleet noticing it. Even the Vengeance was crewed with non starfleet personell (I know. He kept building a giant dreadnought a secret, but as admiral it might be far easier to fake records of a "section 31 shipyard" than killing 72 people in secret by himself).
I dunno, it just seems like a horribly stupid thing to do. Essentially trusting to luck to take care of things for you, with nothing to gain and a lot to lose. It really felt like it needed something in there to take care of this... a reaction by Marcus to show that he didn't know, or to show that he did it because... whatever.
This leaves us about "what is the edge of Klingon space". In the very beginning of the previous movie the Kelvin was near a star and 75.000 km out of Klingon space. I don't think in this version of Star Trek, that the Sphere of Influence equals territory, that they don't count interstellar space as belonging to someone (just like international waters on Earth). So being at the edge of Klingon space could be at the edge of the system, while the neutral zone is more like space between star systems in the region of space where Klingon and Federation systems are knit together.
I think that's extremely unlikely, myself.
I thought about that, too. My opinion is, that there are 3 reasons it is not feasable.
1) You have to know about the place where you rematerialize. So using it for exploration is out of the question. Also there are planets and stellar objects you have to visit with a starship.
There could be a role for ships in terms of locating targets, sure. But that's the model that really makes sense here... Starfleet ships should be tiny things, just enough ship to locate a planet, accurately pinpoint the location, and send it back to Earth. Then bingo, transwarp beam people there to investigate it.

Likewise combat. Tiny stealthy scout ships that locate the enemy planet or facility and send the coordinates back, and WHAMMO from 10,000 long range missiles launched from Earth. Like soldiers calling in artillery support from a battery 30 miles away.
2) It is still risky. Scotty mentioned this, when he was talking to Kirk and Spock about the portable single-use device.
Perhaps. Be kind of funny if Khan had pushed that button and it beamed his legs off and left the rest of him, wouldn't it?
3) If an enemy finds a way to block these kind of transports to its ships and planets, the Federation is stranded and without ships also defenseless, when the enemy uses them.
That's a decent point.
So I think it will hardly be used for anything but emergencies and maybe infiltration missions. Furthermore it can't beam you back,
Any reason you can't use one of those transporters to transport another transporter to the destination?
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Re: STID review/discussion for those who've seen it SPOILERS

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GrahamKennedy wrote:I dunno, it just seems like a horribly stupid thing to do. Essentially trusting to luck to take care of things for you, with nothing to gain and a lot to lose. It really felt like it needed something in there to take care of this... a reaction by Marcus to show that he didn't know, or to show that he did it because... whatever.
Maybe on the Blu-Ray. Like in the first movie, where Neros fate after the Kelvin rammed his ship is explored in the not used scenes.
I think that's extremely unlikely, myself.
As we are here entirely on speculations, nobody can really make a valid point.
There could be a role for ships in terms of locating targets, sure. But that's the model that really makes sense here... Starfleet ships should be tiny things, just enough ship to locate a planet, accurately pinpoint the location, and send it back to Earth. Then bingo, transwarp beam people there to investigate it.

Likewise combat. Tiny stealthy scout ships that locate the enemy planet or facility and send the coordinates back, and WHAMMO from 10,000 long range missiles launched from Earth. Like soldiers calling in artillery support from a battery 30 miles away.
But they still would use ships ;)
Perhaps. Be kind of funny if Khan had pushed that button and it beamed his legs off and left the rest of him, wouldn't it?
Maybe they would have grown back on him :D
But he took the risk. He also was near the bombing site, when the archives exploded, while he could have been already half a planet away to wait for the meeting to occur.
On the other hand. How many people would use a plane if one of ten would crash midflight?
Any reason you can't use one of those transporters to transport another transporter to the destination?
Yep. Just finish reading, before you start to quote :P
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