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So we all know Janeway is an idiot for many reasons. One of the more logical in universe answers to her lack of decision making prowess is that she was a science officer moved to command.

Now we know all Star Fleet personal are given a fairly wide training at the academy before specializing. So it would be understandable that all officers no matter the department are given some command training. Also as you increase in rank in any department you most likely have to do extra training and tests. We see Diana do this in TNG.

Do you think Star Fleet would be better off if they didn't promote people into command from other departments? If they kept it solely in the command officers ranks? Or if its acceptable so long as they are kept on certain classes of vessels?

I doubt it would make a lot of difference. People seem to transfer around between departments somewhat - Geordi went from helm to engineering, etc. Sulu was in sciences as I recall, and he seemed to do just fine as a captain. Hell, even Crusher ended up with a command in All Good Things.

Almost every command-level or 2iC officer we've seen spent time at helm - I don't believe there is a department for "command" save the skipper and the XO.

Crusher was in Command of a Hospital ship, and Future Kim a Science vessel so at least they seem to try to place people in their major. Even the Intrepid is more scienceish than most vessels.

I'd consider tactical and opps the standard postions for "command" personal.

Teaos wrote:Crusher was in Command of a Hospital ship, and Future Kim a Science vessel so at least they seem to try to place people in their major. Even the Intrepid is more scienceish than most vessels.

I'd consider tactical and opps the standard postions for "command" personal.

But Kim wasn't a Science guy.

You could consider things that way if you wanted, but you'd be wrong according to what we've seen. Up until TNG, there were no tactical or ops departments. Tactical was controlled by the helm; communications and navigation were separate. Even after that point, the only skipper of whom I can think who came up through ops was Data's temporary gig in command of the Sutherland. I can't think of any who came up through tac. Sulu, Picard, Sisko, Kirk (I think) all came up through helm.

Teaos wrote:Crusher was in Command of a Hospital ship, and Future Kim a Science vessel so at least they seem to try to place people in their major. Even the Intrepid is more scienceish than most vessels.

I'd consider tactical and opps the standard postions for "command" personal.

But it's not like commanding a hospital ship takes any kind of "Doctor skills". It's still a ship, after all, and the things you need to know to command it are much the same as you need for any other ship. Similar with a science ship - and Kim was not in the science department anyway, he manned operations.

GrahamKennedy wrote: But it's not like commanding a hospital ship takes any kind of "Doctor skills". It's still a ship, after all, and the things you need to know to command it are much the same as you need for any other ship. Similar with a science ship - and Kim was not in the science department anyway, he manned operations.

Exactly!

GK wrote:But it's not like commanding a hospital ship takes any kind of "Doctor skills".

I disagree. Hospitals are not run by generic business administrators or businessmen, the Chief of Hospital (at least in NZ and from what i can tell in NZ) are always senior Doctors. Even the board are made up mostly by Doctors, sure most boards also have a lawyer and maybe other on but several seats at least are again doctors.

A hospital ship can very easily be captained by a Doctor in Star Fleet. so long as they have knowledge of other departments which all Star Fleet officers seem to they can leave the finer running points of Opps and Engineering to their respective departments.

Mikey wrote:But Kim wasn't a Science guy.

Really I always thought Kims mahor was science? He worked in opps but I was under the impressions his training and field of expertise was Science.

Teaos wrote:I disagree. Hospitals are not run by generic business administrators or businessmen, the Chief of Hospital (at least in NZ and from what i can tell in NZ) are always senior Doctors. Even the board are made up mostly by Doctors, sure most boards also have a lawyer and maybe other on but several seats at least are again doctors.

A hospital ship can very easily be captained by a Doctor in Star Fleet. so long as they have knowledge of other departments which all Star Fleet officers seem to they can leave the finer running points of Opps and Engineering to their respective departments.

All of which is true; all of which also makes your example of Crusher absolutely moot. If we adopt GK's stance, then it doesn't matter the background of the CO; if we adopt yours, then skippering a hospital ship is a specialized case and doesn't speak to command positions in general.

Teaos wrote:Really I always thought Kims mahor was science? He worked in opps but I was under the impressions his training and field of expertise was Science.

This had been a conversation about the previous departmental experience of CO's in Starfleet. Kim's departmental experience was ops.

Teaos wrote:

GK wrote:But it's not like commanding a hospital ship takes any kind of "Doctor skills".

I disagree. Hospitals are not run by generic business administrators or businessmen, the Chief of Hospital (at least in NZ and from what i can tell in NZ) are always senior Doctors. Even the board are made up mostly by Doctors, sure most boards also have a lawyer and maybe other on but several seats at least are again doctors.

But a hospital ship is not a hospital, it is a ship with a hospital in it. Which means that the Captain also has to know engines, and shields, and sensors, and all that stuff. Being the captain of a hospital ship is not like running a hospital, it's like running a small town that has a big hospital in it.

A hospital ship can very easily be captained by a Doctor in Star Fleet. so long as they have knowledge of other departments which all Star Fleet officers seem to they can leave the finer running points of Opps and Engineering to their respective departments.

If you're suggesting that a Captain on a medical ship doesn't need to know tactical maneuvers or engineering because they can just leave that to the department heads, I couldn't disagree more. The precise running of a department is a matter for the department head, sure, but that's true as much on a GCS as a medical ship - you never saw Picard trying to tell Geordi who should do what in Engineering, after all. But Picard was responsible for the overview of what the departments did, what ends their efforts were directed to, and that's as true of a hospital ship as it is of any.

What we saw Crusher doing was the same as any captain. Deciding whether to cross a border, dealing with hostile alien vessels, engaging in - or more accurately running from - combat, all that stuff. There was nothing in what we saw that required a person who was a qualified Doctor, any more than Picard had to be a qualified Doctor on the occasions when the E-D responded to some disaster. Seems to me that any good officer is expected to be able to run a ship if necessary, and carry out any kind of mission.

Dr. Crusher is probably a bad example in this debate because I seem to remember that in one episode she took the center seat of the night-shift especially to not forget about her command skills, so it can be assumed that she does indeed have the necessary training. (Maybe she even says so in the episode, I don't remember exactly.)

So she regularily assumed command duty on the enterprise without crashing the ship, which seems to imply a level of competence...ah well, enough Troi bashing:)


That being said, I guess EVERY officier serving on a starship needs to have AT LEAST a basic knowledge of command simply because no matter what department they are part of, they seem to be part of the same chain of command, meaning that no matter where they come from they must always anticipate that there will be circumstances where they find themselves in a command position for various reasons.

Beverley Crusher had taken the "Bridge Commander's Test" or whatever its called, I believe it was mentioned in the episode where Troi takes the test (which she eventually succeeds at, so even a ship's councillor is capable of reaching command level it would seem).

Harry Kim also takes command of the night shift on numerous occasions on-board Voyager, as I recall. As it has already been said, it seems to be a done thing for many personnel to receive command training.

But a hospital ship is not a hospital, it is a ship with a hospital in it. Which means that the Captain also has to know engines, and shields, and sensors, and all that stuff. Being the captain of a hospital ship is not like running a hospital, it's like running a small town that has a big hospital in it.

True but its primary purpose is a hospital.

Big hospitals are almost small towns, with thousands of staff, students, facilites ect ect. Yet it is still felt they should be controlled by a experienced doctor.

A Hospital ship should be under the Command of a Doctor, albeit one with good working knowledge of the other departments, but primarily a Doctor above all else.

If you're suggesting that a Captain on a medical ship doesn't need to know tactical maneuvers or engineering because they can just leave that to the department heads, I couldn't disagree more. The precise running of a department is a matter for the department head, sure, but that's true as much on a GCS as a medical ship - you never saw Picard trying to tell Geordi who should do what in Engineering, after all. But Picard was responsible for the overview of what the departments did, what ends their efforts were directed to, and that's as true of a hospital ship as it is of any.

By no means should they know nothing about it, or leave the department soley up to the command of their senior officers. They should get training in all fields as we see they do, they should also get additional training as they advance in ranks, as we see they do. What I am saying is that they dont need to be experts in everything. A Doctor can captain a starship because he has skilled crewmen to run the departments under his/her guidence.

Mikey wrote:Sulu, Picard, Sisko, Kirk (I think) all came up through helm.

I'm not sure where I'm getting this from, but I swear I recall Sisko's background being in engineering.

Well he did design the Defiant.