SF Debris: The Fall of Night

[Nutso]

http://blip.tv/sf-debris-opinionated-re ... ew-6002048
You guys know how Chuck gets when he reviews B5. He waxes poetic and historic. This is the episode where Sheridan agrees to give the last surviving Narn Heavy Cruiser sanctuary, while there is an Earth delegate who is here to achieve an alliance between Earth and the Centauri. And of course, Kosh reveals himself to all of Babylon 5.


And just to demonstrate how music improves drama here is a clip of B5 vs that Centauri Cruiser: http://youtu.be/fDhF9sxDm7E Damn you Rick Berman!

[Tsukiyumi]

God, I miss B5.

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

You're not the only one...

[Tinadrin Chelnor]

God, I miss B5.

I have every season, film, and spin-off on DVD Re-watch it all several times a year.

[kostmayer]

Am rewatching it at the moment. Gotta love G'kar.

[Tinadrin Chelnor]

Am rewatching it at the moment. Gotta love G'kar.

G'Kar is by far my favourite Babylon 5 character, especially the way he evolves throughout the series. And some of his interactions with Londo are some of the funniest scenes in Babylon 5.

Once I've gotten back through Stargate SG-1 think its time for another rerun of B5

[SolkaTruesilver]

All characters have their own arcs during the serie, for the better or the worse. Some are much more epic than others (Ivanova's is much more personal than Londo's or Sheridan's, obviously). The only one who lacked an arc per se, because he was already in the final act of his personal journey was Marcus.

I liked Londo's own struggle, which somewhat reflected G'Kar's so poetically.

Where G'Kar said all the truths in the world with no one listening or caring, with allies who could barely lift a finger to come to his help but would always be by his side and be true to him.

Londo said all the things he knew to be lies and deceptions, spins and tales, with everybody ready to listen to them because they were convenient. With allies who could smash worlds at his whims but were ready to put his head on a spike the moment he did not danced the steps they laid out for him.

[Deepcrush]

All characters have their own arcs during the serie, for the better or the worse. Some are much more epic than others (Ivanova's is much more personal than Londo's or Sheridan's, obviously). The only one who lacked an arc per se, because he was already in the final act of his personal journey was Marcus.

How exactly would you get anymore personal with Londo or Sheridan? While Ivanova had some personal moments on the show, calling her arc an "epic personal" is just ignorant of the series itself. To the counter, the story of Marcus was very much an epic. To spend one's life trying to live for others, replace one's fallen brother, survive the greatest war in a thousand years only to give up your life to save the woman who he loves rather then see his homeworld liberated. Doesn't get anymore epic then that.

I liked Londo's own struggle, which somewhat reflected G'Kar's so poetically.

Somewhat being the understatement. They were two different types of people who were given the same opportunities with the same future hopes for their races. What we see in the series is the effects of two people on those billions who surround them.

Where G'Kar said all the truths in the world with no one listening or caring, with allies who could barely lift a finger to come to his help but would always be by his side and be true to him.

Since when did no one listen to him?

Londo said all the things he knew to be lies and deceptions, spins and tales, with everybody ready to listen to them because they were convenient. With allies who could smash worlds at his whims but were ready to put his head on a spike the moment he did not danced the steps they laid out for him.

It wasn't that what he said was convenient, its that they weren't in a position to do anything about it at the time. Once the Centauri had the backing of the Shadows, the younger races couldn't compete. Even the Minbari knew that to move openly would just bring the war on before they had time to gather their forces.

[SolkaTruesilver]

All characters have their own arcs during the serie, for the better or the worse. Some are much more epic than others (Ivanova's is much more personal than Londo's or Sheridan's, obviously). The only one who lacked an arc per se, because he was already in the final act of his personal journey was Marcus.

How exactly would you get anymore personal with Londo or Sheridan? While Ivanova had some personal moments on the show, calling her arc an "epic personal" is just ignorant of the series itself. To the counter, the story of Marcus was very much an epic. To spend one's life trying to live for others, replace one's fallen brother, survive the greatest war in a thousand years only to give up your life to save the woman who he loves rather then see his homeworld liberated. Doesn't get anymore epic then that.

Because Ivanova's or Franklin's arcs only affected the world on their personnal level, while Sheridan's, Delenn's, Londo's and G'Kar's story arc had an impact on billions of lives, governements, planets and societies. I am sorry, but how can't you grasp the scale these storylines had on the universe?

As opposed to Ivanova's struggle to be respected, not being patronised by people around her, and maybe accepting to live with her emotion? Or Franklin's finding himself, and knowing where are his limits? You gotta say, there was a lot more chips in the first bucket than this one!

I liked Londo's own struggle, which somewhat reflected G'Kar's so poetically.

Somewhat being the understatement. They were two different types of people who were given the same opportunities with the same future hopes for their races. What we see in the series is the effects of two people on those billions who surround them.

They were reflects only thematically. The actual positions on a personnal level either one of them were were very different.

Where G'Kar said all the truths in the world with no one listening or caring, with allies who could barely lift a finger to come to his help but would always be by his side and be true to him.

Since when did no one listen to him?

The entire fucking 2nd and 3rd season? JMS himself described G'Kar as a Cassandra figure. Sure, some people were willing to indulge him and believe him, but they weren't willing to act on what he said or believed.

Londo said all the things he knew to be lies and deceptions, spins and tales, with everybody ready to listen to them because they were convenient. With allies who could smash worlds at his whims but were ready to put his head on a spike the moment he did not danced the steps they laid out for him.

It wasn't that what he said was convenient, its that they weren't in a position to do anything about it at the time. Once the Centauri had the backing of the Shadows, the younger races couldn't compete. Even the Minbari knew that to move openly would just bring the war on before they had time to gather their forces.

So... out of convenience, in order to buy some time, they accepted the lies fed to them by Londo. The very lies his government told him to say, which is your usual diplomatic mumbo-jumbo, and most people went along with it because it wasn't convenient for them to act at the moment.

Are you really going to be pedantic about this?

[Deepcrush]

Because Ivanova's or Franklin's arcs only affected the world on their personnal level, while Sheridan's, Delenn's, Londo's and G'Kar's story arc had an impact on billions of lives, governements, planets and societies. I am sorry, but how can't you grasp the scale these storylines had on the universe?

So you're saying its not a personal issue for a person to personally have to bare the weight of worlds? You should try thinking about that.

As opposed to Ivanova's struggle to be respected, not being patronised by people around her, and maybe accepting to live with her emotion? Or Franklin's finding himself, and knowing where are his limits? You gotta say, there was a lot more chips in the first bucket than this one!

Then you're saying that we shouldn't count any of the command or battle situations we ever saw Ivanova deal with? Or maybe Franklin's moral clashes with the military arm of the station? You're stating that none of that counts... I think you missed a good chuck of the series then.

They were reflects only thematically. The actual positions on a personnal level either one of them were were very different.

Both looking to bolster their people, both looking to over take the other, both starting as diplomats and ending as world leaders, both handling the loss of love (G'kar his father, Londo his would be wife), both coming from cultures falling apart at the seems. Exactly where do you find this "very different"?

The entire fucking 2nd and 3rd season? JMS himself described G'Kar as a Cassandra figure. Sure, some people were willing to indulge him and believe him, but they weren't willing to act on what he said or believed.

Absolutely, no one like the Minbari or Vorlons or Rangers believed in the Shadows... even if that's all they planned for over the last thousand years. Totally, no one like the B5 Command Staff and later Army of Light recruited the Narns to their aid... minus that whole fighting against Clark and that little Shadow War thing.

So... out of convenience, in order to buy some time, they accepted the lies fed to them by Londo. The very lies his government told him to say, which is your usual diplomatic mumbo-jumbo, and most people went along with it because it wasn't convenient for them to act at the moment.

No, they accepted nothing. If they accepted it then they wouldn't have been planning to move against the Shadows or Centauri later on, which they were in fact doing. Also, strategy isn't a matter of convenience, its a matter of critical thinking. Convenience would have been fighting the Earth Civil War first so that they would have a united Earth Force to face the Shadows with. However that's not how the series turned out.

Are you really going to be pedantic about this?

Why are you on a forum of geeks wondering why you're being questioned for posting statements that lacked a credible thought process?

[SolkaTruesilver]

Why are you on a forum of geeks wondering why you're being questioned for posting statements that lacked a credible thought process?

So yes, you will be pedantic about it. I won't bother anymore. Have fun.

[Tholian_Avenger]

How do you interpret Londo's reply "Nothing. I saw nothing"? I think Londo actually saw a religious figure but because of his shame at his moral decay, Londo did not care to admit seeing the angel.

Another idea is that Londo's continued exposure to the Shadows may have clouded his ability to recognize the angelic presence of the Vorlons, or Kosh may have even hid his presence from Londo's mind.

The prevalent theory, however, is that Londo didn't see anything because the Vorlons hadn't modified the Centauri species to respond religiously to their physical presence. This has been expanded in the EU I believe by the stipulation that the Vorlons had chosen the Xon, who were defeated by the Centauri with the aid of some Technomages.

Technomages were Shadow servants back in the era of the Xon-Centauri War

I think the prevalent theory is crap though.

[SolkaTruesilver]

I have a hard time admitting the theory as well. I mean, even if the Centauri hadn't been visited by the Vorlons in the past... ... he still would have seen SOMETHING.. He just wouldn't have had a cultural background to refer and identifiy what he saw.

Also, I don't accept the theory that "he's been touched by the Shadows" and that is why he couldn't see Kosh... Or actually, I don't accept this theory on one ground, that hasn't been confirmed but seems to be an accepted interpretation of the facts:

Londo is the only Centauri at the time that has been touched by the Shadows (that we know of, but I doubt the Shadow will go and touch as many people as they can. that sounded accidently dirty). But the overall accepted interpretation is, NO Centauri saw Kosh. As far as I knew, there was plenty of Centauri gathered to see Sheridan's apologies. Have THEY seen something?

If they haven't, then it's the Centauri as a whole who can't perceive the Vorlons..
If it was only Londo, then it was probably "touched by the Shadows".

[Nutso]

How do you interpret Londo's reply "Nothing. I saw nothing"? I think Londo actually saw a religious figure but because of his shame at his moral decay, Londo did not care to admit seeing the angel.

Another idea is that Londo's continued exposure to the Shadows may have clouded his ability to recognize the angelic presence of the Vorlons, or Kosh may have even hid his presence from Londo's mind.

The prevalent theory, however, is that Londo didn't see anything because the Vorlons hadn't modified the Centauri species to respond religiously to their physical presence. This has been expanded in the EU I believe by the stipulation that the Vorlons had chosen the Xon, who were defeated by the Centauri with the aid of some Technomages.

Technomages were Shadow servants back in the era of the Xon-Centauri War

I think the prevalent theory is crap though.

Londo saw nothing I believe. While the others are all looking as anyone who sees their religious icon actually real, a combination of fright, wonderment, and joy, Londo has a look on his face of "What? What are you seeing I'm not?" He's bewildered because they all are calling out their icon's name who happens to be a being of light, while he has nothing to call out. I believe that all who saw their icons are also monotheistic cultures, while the Centauri are polytheistic to the point where they elevate their deceased Emperors to godhood.

Here is a link to the moment Kosh saves Sheridan: http://youtu.be/3dSfYT2d0I8

[SolkaTruesilver]

Didn't Londo said on many occasion "Great Maker!"?

I know they have a background of polytheism, but I was under the impression that the Maker's religion touched them.