The Die Is Cast Question

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SolkaTruesilver
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Re: The Die Is Cast Question

Post by SolkaTruesilver »

Deepcrush wrote:Defender = people defending a position.
Attacker = people attacking a position.
All right. In that case, I meant the debris will grant some cover to the attackers, no?

Maybe. Have we ever saw a Jem'Hadar ship explode and give wreckages the way we saw other starship do?
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Re: The Die Is Cast Question

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SolkaTruesilver wrote:All right. In that case, I meant the debris will grant some cover to the attackers, no?
Sure, but the problem is that rather then taking a hit from a UFP-PT or RSE-Plasma, you've just crashed into another ship... which is normally a bad thing if you're trying to live.
SolkaTruesilver wrote:Maybe. Have we ever saw a Jem'Hadar ship explode and give wreckages the way we saw other starship do?
All ships produce wreckage.
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Re: The Die Is Cast Question

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Didn't we see one explode into bits of wreckage in this very episode, when Sisko - seemingly for cool points, charged a ship and fired on it at point blank range before ramming through whats left of it?
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Re: The Die Is Cast Question

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kostmayer wrote:Didn't we see one explode into bits of wreckage in this very episode, when Sisko - seemingly for cool points, charged a ship and fired on it at point blank range before ramming through whats left of it?
Indeed. Check at 1:45, you'll see the Defiant hit by wreckage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vSp9CLyImA
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Re: The Die Is Cast Question

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Another question occurs. Assuming Eddington hadn't sabotaged the Defiant, how was Sisko planning on rescuing Odo?
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Re: The Die Is Cast Question

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Transporter while cloaked would have been my guess.
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Re: The Die Is Cast Question

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Deepcrush wrote:Transporter while cloaked would have been my guess.
Assuming he'd even thought that far ahead and wasn't just making it up as he went along. Sisko isn't exactly the type for detailed forward planning, his stint as Ross' Chief of Staff notwithstanding.
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Re: The Die Is Cast Question

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Captain Seafort wrote:
Deepcrush wrote:Transporter while cloaked would have been my guess.
Assuming he'd even thought that far ahead and wasn't just making it up as he went along. Sisko isn't exactly the type for detailed forward planning, his stint as Ross' Chief of Staff notwithstanding.
Fair enough.
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Re: The Die Is Cast Question

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How exactly did Sisko evolve into a strategic expert? He wasn't even a Captain when he took over the station, looking to get out as soon as possible.

Was he picked to lead the war effort specifically because he was a bit gung ho? Starfleet did drag their heels in deciding to mine the wormhole (which must have put their war effort back a fair way). And I got the impression he had to do some pestering to persuade Starfleet to retake DS9 (before they learned the mines were about to be disabled).

Did they want someone a bit reckless who could cut through the redtape and get things done?
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Re: The Die Is Cast Question

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Deepcrush wrote:Hardly a problem since it only takes one person per ship to open fire. The rest will have plenty of time to rotate watch and even for R&R on the station next to them.
The defenders are not going to be able to keep their weapons at full readiness 24/7. They will need to perform maintenance, system checks, let alone the constant wear on the equipment from being at permanent readiness.
Deepcrush wrote:Sure, if they did this they would lose 10 ships per kill... at least 20 defenders of unknown types outside of the Defiant. Then the station... if that would mean the Dominion would lose 300 ships before getting through and thats only if the defenders for some reason decided not to reinforce their lines. Again, not really a wise move for the attacker.

There is only one way to remove a fixed point of defense from a fix point of attack. That is through vastly superior numbers and firepower.
I'd accept 300 ship losses if I was the Dominion. I'd accept 600, if it means I had control over the wormhole. The Dominion has the superior numbers to handle those losses. The Bugs are expendable, as are the Jem'Hadar. During the Dominion War the Klingons had ~1500 ships to fight the Cardominion forces, and were described as outnumbered 20:1. That tells me I could lose 3000 ships and still come out ahead by controlling the wormhole. That is my goal, and losing expendable ships is acceptable.

Now losing those ships effectively is another matter. If I can keep the defenders unable to relax, as at any time my ships could come through, and they are unable to keep their ships at combat readiness, then I can wear them down one at a time. Basically use the Bugs as intelligent antishipping missiles.

kostmayer wrote:How exactly did Sisko evolve into a strategic expert? He wasn't even a Captain when he took over the station, looking to get out as soon as possible.

Was he picked to lead the war effort specifically because he was a bit gung ho? Starfleet did drag their heels in deciding to mine the wormhole (which must have put their war effort back a fair way). And I got the impression he had to do some pestering to persuade Starfleet to retake DS9 (before they learned the mines were about to be disabled).
What would have been nice is Dax running tactical and strategic simulations for Sisko, and finding a pattern in the results. Show that Sisko has an obvious improvement in effectiveness when the simulation puts him in the Bajor system. This links his being the Emissary (aka touched by the Prophets) to being a Starfleet officer. He is able to 'predict' critical moments in the simulations, and get better results.

I.e. have Dax show two simulations, everything else identical, and the simulation on Bajor is where Sisko gets better performance. This is a case where Sisko runs the Bajor simulation first, then the regular. Critical decisions he made in the battle on Bajor that were right, he doesn't make in the regular sim.

Dax presents the data to the Federation strategic planning council, showing an observable, verifiable, and repeatable improvement in combat effectiveness for Sisko, and all personnel under his command. As a result, Sisko gets put in charge of more forces. He may fight the Defiant as its Captain, but if he tells a force to assume a certain formation, it is for their own good. He could order a wing of damaged ships along a certain vector that appears to make them look vulnerable, the Dominion turns to pursue, and that puts the Dominion force into a perfect position for late Kingon arrivals to slaughter them, allowing the wounded ships to get away.
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Re: The Die Is Cast Question

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Coalition wrote:The defenders are not going to be able to keep their weapons at full readiness 24/7. They will need to perform maintenance, system checks, let alone the constant wear on the equipment from being at permanent readiness.
Since they don't have to stay at 24/7 alert by just putting a probe on the other side of the Wormhole, I think they'll be okay.
I'd accept 300 ship losses if I was the Dominion. I'd accept 600, if it means I had control over the wormhole. The Dominion has the superior numbers to handle those losses. The Bugs are expendable, as are the Jem'Hadar.
The problem is that every lost ship is now a ship that is blocking part of the choke point they are trying to get through. Expendable only works when you have a solid advantage to press against your enemy.
During the Dominion War the Klingons had ~1500 ships to fight the Cardominion forces, and were described as outnumbered 20:1.
The KDF had 1500 ships ready that week. So for that week they were outnumbered 20:1.
That tells me I could lose 3000 ships and still come out ahead by controlling the wormhole. That is my goal, and losing expendable ships is acceptable.


Again, only helps you if you can still pass through the wormhole. 3000 wrecked ships is a pain to have to fly through. Even more so when the space you're flying through is only big enough for a dozen ships at a time to pass through.
Now losing those ships effectively is another matter. If I can keep the defenders unable to relax, as at any time my ships could come through, and they are unable to keep their ships at combat readiness, then I can wear them down one at a time. Basically use the Bugs as intelligent antishipping missiles.
Minus every day you wait your enemy gathers strength on the position making it more and more difficult to advance through. It only took a few days to mine the wormhole, so that means you have to strike within that window.
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Re: The Die Is Cast Question

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Didn't we see a fleet of several dozen large Dominion ships in the wormhole at one point (before they got wiped out by the "prophets").
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Re: The Die Is Cast Question

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Dominion Battle Cruisers, and a fair number of them as you said. If I were going to punch a hole in a hardened line I'd send them first followed closely by a number of Bugs per. As soon as they exit, try to break off and spread out the defenders fire.
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Re: The Die Is Cast Question

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That would be much better than waves of just bugs. Those BCs could last a while, and are big enough to provide cover for the small bugs.
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Re: The Die Is Cast Question

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stitch626 wrote:That would be much better than waves of just bugs. Those BCs could last a while, and are big enough to provide cover for the small bugs.
Exactly, though in the end no matter what the Dominion is going to have to suck up a lot of losses getting through the AQ defenses.
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