DS9 and Money

[stitch626]

Perhaps, by money, they mean worthless cloth that only has a value because everyone uses it.

[Sionnach Glic]

So....most (if not all) other species in the UFP have a currency of some sort, but humans don't? While the quotes do indeed seem to suggest that, I'm finding it hard to imagine how that could possibly work smoothly. What if an Andoran tourist goes to Earth? Can he not buy something there? And if he can, what with? And if a human goes to a planet where they do use money, how does he pay for stuff?

[Captain Seafort]

So....most (if not all) other species in the UFP have a currency of some sort, but humans don't? While the quotes do indeed seem to suggest that, I'm finding it hard to imagine how that could possibly work smoothly. What if an Andoran tourist goes to Earth? Can he not buy something there? And if he can, what with? And if a human goes to a planet where they do use money, how does he pay for stuff?

And if every other species uses money, why would Picard, Crusher, etc, be so clueless about the concept of stocks and shares?

[Coalition]

If they do anything with the new timeline I would like to see them retcon this nonsense right out of Trek. The notion in and of itself is stupid beyond imagination. I could envison societies in which it would work, but even for TNG it makes no sense. If you have no money how can you have property? Why should the Picards get a large vinyard in France when others have to presumably live in apartments? Those things have different values and you have to have some sort of system for deciding who gets to live where if there is no money.

One option for the vineyard is that it is kept for historical purposes. Like the windmills in the Netherlands that use wind power to pump water, when electrical pumps are more powerful. The people who want to work in a windmill have to earn that right through various tests, not just volunteering.

So Picard's family isn't running a business, they are running an old-fashioned vineyard for cultural preservation.

[Captain Seafort]

So Picard's family isn't running a business, they are running an old-fashioned vineyard for cultural preservation.

That's one strong possibility. Another is that people still want real wine (just as Picard complained about the quality of replicated caviar).

[stitch626]

And if every other species uses money, why would Picard, Crusher, etc, be so clueless about the concept of stocks and shares?

Well, that I can let slide. There was money bake in the Dark Ages, but stocks and shares didn't exist.

Its quite possible that the concept of partial ownership of a company based on what appears to be imaginary numbers had disappeared at some point in Earth's history.

[Graham Kennedy]

As for the problem of humans going to other federation planets or Andorians coming to Earth : one can only guess. How about this : the government of Earth charges visitors a fee of some sort to cover their use of the Earth's services and resources whilst they're there. So it's like one of those "everything included" hotels where you pay to go there then food, drink, etc are all free once you're there. The money so collected goes into a central pot, and Human tourists who want to leave Earth are given money to cover them. So long as income => outgoing, the system works.

[Mikey]

The problem is that she never said she had something to barter - she said to debit her account, which strongly implies virtual money... something which we primitive little monkeys call "credit." Credit requires a money-based economy.

An economy that is repeatedly disproven. In "The Neutral Zone" no-one had any idea what Offenhouse was talking about when he asked about his investment portfolio. In "The Price" the Federation offered technology, scientific expertise and military assistance for the Barzan wormhole, rather than simply buying it. Not to mention the repeated statements that money doesn't exist.

Exactly! You have excellently reiterated the quandary. However, this doesn't provide any answers to it.

I reiterate that the most likely procedure is that the Federation compensates the Farpointians for whatever their representatives buy with traded materials.

If so, I'd find it highly unlikely that Crusher would be able to use such a general slush fund to purchase luxury items for personal use.

If they do anything with the new timeline I would like to see them retcon this nonsense right out of Trek. The notion in and of itself is stupid beyond imagination. I could envison societies in which it would work, but even for TNG it makes no sense. If you have no money how can you have property? Why should the Picards get a large vinyard in France when others have to presumably live in apartments? Those things have different values and you have to have some sort of system for deciding who gets to live where if there is no money.

One option for the vineyard is that it is kept for historical purposes. Like the windmills in the Netherlands that use wind power to pump water, when electrical pumps are more powerful. The people who want to work in a windmill have to earn that right through various tests, not just volunteering.

So Picard's family isn't running a business, they are running an old-fashioned vineyard for cultural preservation.

Again, this would make sense - except for two things. It is strongly implied that the vintages Robert produced were offered for (some unknown form of) retail consumption as his - Chateau Picard or whatever - rather than "Communal Gub'mint Thunderbird." Second, it is indicated here and elsewhere that the official stance is a preference for synthehol. If gub'mint-overseen, then, synthehol is what would be offered for "sale."

[Mark]

I have a simple question. How does a human like Cassidy Yates buy her own ship? Following that theory, she would have to work her entire life for non-humans to make enough to buy that ship OR she could simply ask "Earth" for one, and it would be provided cost free. In which case everyone who wanted their own ship would have one, and there would be no off planet human labor force.

[Sonic Glitch]

I have a simple question. How does a human like Cassidy Yates buy her own ship? Following that theory, she would have to work her entire life for non-humans to make enough to buy that ship OR she could simply ask "Earth" for one, and it would be provided cost free. In which case everyone who wanted their own ship would have one, and there would be no off planet human labor force.

Perhaps it's merely starfleet that doesn't have money? (yes, I'm reaching here) instead they have some sort of credit based on the standard federation unit that can then be converted into the local currency?

[Mark]

Sorry, doesn't hold water. While Starfleet may not NEED money due to having full access to replicators, holodecks, and other goodies while on ship, we again fall back to the times we've seen Starfleet officers spending money (ie Farpoint station, DS9, and so forth)

[Sonic Glitch]

Sorry, doesn't hold water. While Starfleet may not NEED money due to having full access to replicators, holodecks, and other goodies while on ship, we again fall back to the times we've seen Starfleet officers spending money (ie Farpoint station, DS9, and so forth)

None of which were primarily Federation/Starfleet outposts. See the second part of my post

[Sionnach Glic]

Presumably Starfleet personel still need to be paid. I find it hard to believe that the guy who scrubs out the ship's whale tanks does it for free.

[Mikey]

I have a simple question. How does a human like Cassidy Yates buy her own ship? Following that theory, she would have to work her entire life for non-humans to make enough to buy that ship OR she could simply ask "Earth" for one, and it would be provided cost free. In which case everyone who wanted their own ship would have one, and there would be no off planet human labor force.

Perhaps it's merely starfleet that doesn't have money? (yes, I'm reaching here) instead they have some sort of credit based on the standard federation unit that can then be converted into the local currency?

The second part of that statement contradicts the first part. Credit, just like paper money, is based on promissory value. Credit is a function of a money-based economy, just like currency. For example, using the situation of Crusher at Farpoint: there are three options regarding the statement about charging her purchase of fabric to her account -
a) she has a stockpile of some goods that have trade value. This is implausible because she would have to somehow have amassed a quantity of goods that had barter value across disparate cultures. Some economy must be in place for her to have collected such a stockpile; the "get what you need for free" bit would have to have limits, probably somewhere near "What does the CMO need with a half ton of deuterium?"
b) she has available credit. This jibes better with her description of charging her purchases to her account, but unfortunately contradicts the moneyless situation among humanity described elsewhere.
c) she incorrectly describes a barter of services. This is also implausible, as it's very awkward to describe an offer of professional services as a charge to an account; further, there was no negotiation (or even mention) of labor hours or anything like that.

[BigJKU316]

Presumably Starfleet personel still need to be paid. I find it hard to believe that the guy who scrubs out the ship's whale tanks does it for free.

This is why everyone you ever see or deal with in TNG is a command level type person for the most part. You can make this system believable that people are just working to better themselves if the lowest person on the totem poll you ever see is a Lt.jg who works in astrophysics.

If you started showing enlisted people and had PFC Gump doing typical enlisted jobs you would wonder how in the world does it better this man to spend all of his days performing window maintenence or fixing the toilets. Who on earth would sign up to do this crap in a society in which you apparently do not have to work much to live comfortably and at the very least if you did have to work could at least do the same job without being shot at and possibly killed in space under a chain of command where you could be jailed for talking back to your boss.