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I've been watching a few episodes of nBSG lately. The most recent one I watched was Pegasus, where I found an interesting line. During the scene where Cain is explaining to Adama and Roslin how they escaped the Cylon attack, Cain says the following:

"They hit the shipyards with three, maybe four, nukes. Five ships - two of them Battlestars - were destroyed right there."

This would seem to suggest that there are other ships in the Colonial Fleet that aren't classed as Battlestars.

Curious, I stuck on my Razor DVD whilst at the same time began browsing Battlestar Wiki. What I've found is rather interesting.

The first thing I noticed is that there are more than 5 ships there. I suppose it's possible that Cain was only reffering to ships that she personally saw destroyed before jumping away.

The second I'll demonstrate with a pic, stolen shamelessly from Battlestar Wiki.



Firstly, here's the shipyard itself. Pegasus is on the lower-right part of the shipyard, and a Galactica-style Battlestar can be seen in the upper-right. The camer then procedes to zoom in on the Pegasus, but it also gives us a brief shot of something else.




See that ship just above Pegasus? We've not encountered that one before in the show.

Battlestar Wiki says that this ship is based on concept art by a guy named Eric Chu, one of the CGI guys. The only real info I've found on the ship, though, is a bunch of renderings done here. Of course, it's all non-canon, so it's pretty much useless.

So, going by Cain's dialogue we have two destroyed battlestars and three other vessels of unknown design. Well, firstly I think we can discount the above unknown vessel as being a Battlestar. Prior to the Pegasus' escape we see two ships wrecked: on a Galactica-style ship (which is in a different part of the shipyard, so it could be a different one than the one we can see on the pics above) and a Valkyrie-style ship that gets blown in half. I'd wager that these two are the Battlestars she described.

Regarding the other three unnamed ships, it's possible that they're of the unknown vessel's design. At the start of the attack Pegasus is rocked by a large explosion, but exterior shots show very little damage to the Battlestar or the surrounding shipyard structure. It's possible that the explosion was caused by the destruction of the unknown vessel docked next to it (indeed, in exterior shots we never see the ship again, so it's quite likely that it was destroyed).

That accounts for one of the non-Battlestar craft Cain mentioned. It's possible that the other two were of a similar class. We already know that the shipyard is larger than the wide shot we get at the very start (due to the presence of a second Galactica Battlestar and a previously unseen Valkyrie), so it's possible that there were another two ships of that same class around somewhere, either on patrol or also docked at the station.

This has interesting implications for the size of the Colonial Fleet. We know that the Fleet has 120 Battlestars. This obviously includes Pegasus and Galactica class ships. Possibly Valkyries as well. So what sort of numbers would we be looking at for these smaller vessels? Presumably they're some sort of escort vessel for the Battlestars, or perhaps a patrol craft. In either case I'd imagine there's at least one of these ships for every Battlestar, perhaps two or three even. This would also make any "fair" war between the Colonies and the Cylons even more one-sided.

So, thoughts?

I would have been shocked if someone claimed the fleet was composed of nothing but battlestars. I'd have expected some other vessels as well.

I might guess that ship could be missile carrier of some sort.

What if, like SW, they had multiple types of Battlestars?

SW has ISD, VSD, SSD, Interdictors, etc...

Tyyr wrote:I would have been shocked if someone claimed the fleet was composed of nothing but battlestars. I'd have expected some other vessels as well.

I might guess that ship could be missile carrier of some sort.

Agreed. It's almost a certainty that there are other vessels hanging around.

Praeothmin wrote:What if, like SW, they had multiple types of Battlestars?

SW has ISD, VSD, SSD, Interdictors, etc...

Well, we know that there are at least three types of Battlestar in service as of the attack. The Mercury class Battlestar (Pegasus and its type), the Valkyrie-style Battlestar (which always seemed to me as a sort of light-battlestar) and there are still a number of Galactica-style Battlestars around in front-line combat duty.

What I'm curious about, though, is the Fleet's non-Battlestar ships.

Sionnach Glic wrote:
This has interesting implications for the size of the Colonial Fleet. We know that the Fleet has 120 Battlestars. This obviously includes Pegasus and Galactica class ships. Possibly Valkyries as well. So what sort of numbers would we be looking at for these smaller vessels? Presumably they're some sort of escort vessel for the Battlestars, or perhaps a patrol craft. In either case I'd imagine there's at least one of these ships for every Battlestar, perhaps two or three even. This would also make any "fair" war between the Colonies and the Cylons even more one-sided.

Well, we know what 30 battlestars was "a quarter of the fleet" is it possible that the 30 battlestars we first hear reported as destroyed are in fact 1/4 of the fleet, but the entire fleet isn't Battlestars? That 120 number could include ships other than battlestars. How many Battlestars do we actually see (in the Miniseries and series)?

I may be completely off here, but I've always assumed that Battlestars were the analog of todays aircraft carrier which doubled as a flagship. We know that Battlestars work in BGS (Battle Star Groups), and I've always figured they worked with several smaller ships (frigates, cruisers, destroyers, and such).

In fact, there would be no way the fleet of a 120 ships makes sense when you figure that there are 12 colonies. That would be a piddly 10 ships per planet. Maybe enough to safeguard the homeworlds, but not if you've got some down for refitting, getting sent on missions, and so forth. For a space fleet, that seems pretty damned small.

We hear of and see quite a few, actually.

We see at least four Galactica class Battlestars.
At least five Valkyrie-class Battlestars (four over Scorpio Shipyards and the Valkyrie herself).
The only Mercury class that we see is the Pegasus (presumably there's a Mercury around somewhere as well), but no one seems all to surprised to see it or considers its design particularly unusual. this would seem to suggest that they were a fairly common ship in the fleet.
Additionaly, there are a number of Battlestars whose names are mentioned but are never shown on-screen: Columbia, Triton and Solaria. Tyrol also mentions the names of (IIRC) four other Battlestars that he served on.

So that's fourteen Battlestars for which we have direct confirmation of existing. Given that those fourteen vessels comprise nearly every ship we've seen destroyed, I find it hard to believe that they're just a small part of the fleet.

Also, IIRC, in the miniseries Doral (while he's giving his tour) says that there are twelve Galactica-class Battlestars in total, with Galactica being the only one that wasn't upgraded. If there really are only 30 Battlestars then Galactica-class ships make up almost half the fleet. Given how they're seen as "relics" (Adama's own words) I have my doubts that they comprise a significant chunk of the fleet.

Mark wrote:I may be completely off here, but I've always assumed that Battlestars were the analog of todays aircraft carrier which doubled as a flagship. We know that Battlestars work in BGS (Battle Star Groups), and I've always figured they worked with several smaller ships (frigates, cruisers, destroyers, and such).

In fact, there would be no way the fleet of a 120 ships makes sense when you figure that there are 12 colonies. That would be a piddly 10 ships per planet. Maybe enough to safeguard the homeworlds, but not if you've got some down for refitting, getting sent on missions, and so forth. For a space fleet, that seems pretty damned small.

I'm inclined to agree. Space is big. Very very big. You'd need a lot more than just ten ships per planet, particularly when you consider that (if we go by modern conventions) at least half the fleet is going to be unavailable for combat at any given time.

Here's wikipedia's list of Battlestars with a touch of info about them.

List of Battlestars
Battlestar Atlantia
Became the flagship of Admiral Nagala and the surviving Colonial Fleet after Picon Fleet Headquarters and much of the fleet are destroyed during the first wave of the Cylon assault. Like almost all of its sister ships, Atlantia was subsequently destroyed.[2]

Battlestar Columbia
The first Battlestar Columbia served during the First Cylon War and was destroyed during Operation Raptor Talon, the last battle of that conflict. William Adama was involved in this action on his first mission as a Viper pilot, and witnessed the ship's destruction. This Columbia appears to belong to the same ship class as Galactica. [12]

The second Battlestar Columbia was destroyed along with the Atlantia during the Second Cylon War. Columbia's executive officer some time before the events depicted in the show was William Adama.[2]

Battlestar Galactica
The Galactica survived the Cylon attack on the Colonies. During its service in the original Cylon war, the Galactica was a part of Battlestar Group 75 (BSG 75). At the time of the attack, Galactica was the last ship of its class and is undergoing formal decommissioning, to be converted into a museum. The Galactica was commanded by William Adama.[2] It becomes the protector of a fleet of civilian ships carrying the last remnants of humanity.

Battlestar Pegasus
The Battlestar Pegasus also survived the Cylon attack. It was more advanced (a Mercury class Battlestar) than Galactica and was part of Battlestar Group 62 (BSG-62). Originally commanded by Rear Admiral Cain, her former Executive Officer, Colonel Fisk became commander of Pegasus following her death. Commander Fisk was murdered in a conflict related to his illegal black market trading activities and was replaced by Chief Engineer Garner. Garner himself was killed in action shortly after, saving Pegasus from a Cylon ambush. Under its final commander, Lee Adama, Pegasus intentionally rammed a Cylon Basestar, destroying itself in the process. [13]

Battlestar Solaria
Destroyed along with the Atlantia.[2]

Battlestar Triton
Destroyed along with the Atlantia.[2] Triton was part of Battlestar Group 39 (BSG-39) and she was Crashdown's original posting.[14] Starbuck also served on the Battlestar Triton once.[15]

Battlestar Valkyrie
Commanded by William Adama three years prior to the fall of the Twelve Colonies. Valkyrie was ordered by Admiral Corman to launch a black operation to penetrate the Cylon Armistice Zone to gather intelligence on Cylon battle readiness. The operation ended in disaster, and Adama was 'downgraded' to command of Galactica to oversee that ship's retirement (and his own). Battlestar Valkyrie was assigned to Battlestar Group 41 (BSG-41). The Valkyrie was destroyed over Caprica just prior to the fall of the Twelve Colonies, as seen in Battlestar Galactica: The Plan.[16]

Battlestar Yashuman
Destroyed along with Battlestar Valkyrie over the planet Caprica just prior to the fall of the Twelve Colonies. Yashuman initially detects the Cylon assault force on DRADIS during the engagement, and launches its Vipers. However, after being scanned by Cylon raiders, CNP backdoors are activated and Yashuman's systems are shut down, paving the way for the Cylons to destroy her without a shot fired in return.[16]

The existence of "Battle Star Groups" pretty much means there HAS to be other ships, and probably a lot of them.

Frankly I'd be surprised if they didn't have many of the usual ships one would expect - Frigates, Cruisers, perhaps ELINT/AEW ships and such. It's just basic common sense that you don't use a Battlestar for every job. It's a huge bunch of people and resources to send on some scouting or SAR mission when something a tenth the size could do it just as well.

FWIW, BSG fandom is packed full of people who've designed every ship type you can imagine. Including the inevitable ten mile long super-dreadought-stars.

GrahamKennedy wrote:...the inevitable ten mile long super-dreadought-stars.

Which obviously were completely useless after the Cylons used the backdoor program.

On topic ( ), the Galactica being part of group 75 suggests a larger naval force than would be feasible with only 120 ships.

Well, it's not necessarily true that BSG-75 proves there is a BSG-1 through 74. After all, America doesn't and never has had 101 airborne divisions, now has it?

Tsukiyumi wrote:On topic ( ), the Galactica being part of group 75 suggests a larger naval force than would be feasible with only 120 ships.

That assumes that the numbers are sequential - during WW2 the US Army only had 70-odd infantry divisions, but they were numbered up to 106. It also assumes that the reference to thirty lost battlestars being a quarter of the fleet refers to the entire fleet rather than just the battlestar force. I can see someone describing the loss of half a dozen US carriers as "half the fleet", and ignoring the escorts.

GrahamKennedy wrote:Well, it's not necessarily true that BSG-75 proves there is a BSG-1 through 74. After all, America doesn't and never has had 101 airborne divisions, now has it?

No, but the airborne divisions use the same sequence as the normal infantry divisions (as does the 10th Mountain Div), so the discrepancy isn't as severe as it appears.

As best I can tell the US has, or has had, nine airborne divisions. Less than a tenth of the number their designation would suggest.

It could easily be so for Battlestars.

Well, you don't exactly want to advertise your exact military strength so easily.....so some discrepency would be intentional.