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I was reading the STXI nit thread and about to reply, but the specific circumstances seemed to link to a larger topic so I gave it a thread of its own. And that thread is this:

Actually, it's the "thread" you're now reading.

From time to time we'd seen a phaser beam fired in such a manner, and part of me had wondered if they might not be more widely used as such a defensive weapon? The Lord knows we've discussed the relatively slow apparent speeds and apparent lack of mobility of 'Trek torpedoes (and weapons in general). However, in STXI, this became one of the primary roles of ships phasers (though in the final battle the big E did use her phasers along with torps do finish off the crippled Narada)!

It is also true that many of the UFP's rivals seemed to lean more towards energy weapons than torps for much of 'Trek, and the Starfleet ships were seen to use torps a bit more heavily (something else that was reversed in this film). Still, the different approach is striking. What does the forum think of this "new" usage, whatever implications it may have for the Abramsverse, and why it wasn't seen more often in the Geneverse?

Earlier, I theorised that phasers are more effective in the new universe than torps. In the Kobyashi Maru, Kirk orded torps, and McCoy balked saying they're shields are still up. This leads me to believe that even though torps may be more powerful then phasers, its a double sided coin as to BE effective, you'd need to batter down a ships shields.

That being the case, if the ships shields go down, you'd NEED a secondary defensive system against torps, and they seem quite devistating at that point. Its a concept that SHOULD have come into play years ago, but for some reason didn't.

Are we certain that phasers were used in STXI as anti-torp weapons? I know some kind of CIWS weapon was used, but it looked more like a pulse weapon than a phaser. It's possible that this weapon was deisgned specificaly to put out shitloads of low-power shots very quickly, without causing the power drain that a phaser beam would.

As for why we never saw anti-torp weapons in the Geneverse, perhaps phasers were simply too cumbersome to be properly used as CIWS weapons (IIRC, we had a thread a few months ago discussing the viability of a wide-spread phaser beam as a CIWS system).

Indeed. I got the distinct impression that the small, numerous turrets we saw were dedicated point-defense weapons - perhaps based on phaser tehcnology, but designed differently than ship-to-ship phaser weapons.

Mikey wrote:Indeed. I got the distinct impression that the small, numerous turrets we saw were dedicated point-defense weapons - perhaps based on phaser tehcnology, but designed differently than ship-to-ship phaser weapons.

On the Kelvin, yes (wee see them close-up). We don't see clearly where Enterprise was firing her anti-torp barrage from later in the film, though the volume of fire does suggest numerous emitters.

Even if we accept that there exists this tech in the Abramsverse which wasn't developed in the original universe, we then must ask "why;" though that probably isn't answerable. As I mentioned in the OP, it seemed like an idea that went ignored for some time until the new production team came along.

IU, we could almost make up any reason as to why. Perhaps phaser technology developed differently, allowing for (in the Abramsverse) a rapid-firing but relatively short-range and low-powered version.

Captain Picard's Hair wrote:

Mikey wrote:Indeed. I got the distinct impression that the small, numerous turrets we saw were dedicated point-defense weapons - perhaps based on phaser tehcnology, but designed differently than ship-to-ship phaser weapons.

On the Kelvin, yes (wee see them close-up). We don't see clearly where Enterprise was firing her anti-torp barrage from later in the film, though the volume of fire does suggest numerous emitters.

Even if we accept that there exists this tech in the Abramsverse which wasn't developed in the original universe, we then must ask "why;" though that probably isn't answerable. As I mentioned in the OP, it seemed like an idea that went ignored for some time until the new production team came along.

The weapon emitters on the Abrams E are the same six dual phaser banks as on the E-A. At least visually.

Except for the myriad little pop-up turrets, which are the ones we're discussing.

But the E did not have any pop up turrets, and CPH was referring to the E's attack on the torps at the end of the film.

I didn't see that reference in the OP. I was talking about the Kelvin.

And if you had read what I had posted (and quoted) you would have realized I was responding to CPH's reference of the E, not the Kelvin.

I read both of CPH's posts, and they either reference neither ship specifically, or both.

Yes, and what I wrote specifically refereed to the E. I never mentioned the Kelvin.

The Kelvin clearly demonstrated two distinct types of energy weapons, while we can't say for certain the E did. The E did fire pulses against the torps and beams later against the crippled Narada, but it's been demonstrated that regular phasers can act in both fashions. The six banks of twin turrets quoted by stitch would be enough to put out the volume of fire demonstrated in the attack against Narada's torpedoes, especially when fired in quick succession. Perhaps the longer range to the torps involved in the later scene made it easier for the E to use proper phasers and simultaneously made the more powerful pulses more favorable whether she had a point-defense system installed or not. The Enterprise would certainly have had much stronger shields than the Kelvin (being of a later generation, a much larger vessel, and in a more aggressive role than the scout-type Kelvin seemed to be) but the Narada's torps seemed to have some technological ability to defeat the shield technology of the era (though Starfleet wouldn't have been able to 'test' shields against the supership).

The E, though huge, couldn't have been designed *specifically* for the Narada, which was herself an anachronism anyway, and Starfleet may not have deemed a specific point defense system necessary on a larger and much more heavily armed ship than the Kelvin. Plus, as she certainly would have had a much more powerful power plant than Kelvin to accompany her massive size, Enterprise wouldn't have needed to worry as much about the power demands of phasers.

This is to say that we may have indeed seen true phasers in use as a torpedo defense platform in the later scene (though not "close in" as in a CIWS such as was demonstrated by the Kelvin). Perhaps this is why Captain Pike didn't attempt a Kelvin-style defense at the battle of Vulcan (though admittedly it was a very short "battle" indeed until Nero halted the attack).

This latter type of defensive use of phasers (if this supposition is true) would be something demonstrated to be possible in STXI with phasers but rarely seen in the Geneverse. As Mikey did point out though, there are so many IU explanations possible that to selectively elect a specific one as the reason explaining the difference is impossible, hence the question is "unanswerable" as I said above.

Mikey wrote:IU, we could almost make up any reason as to why. Perhaps phaser technology developed differently, allowing for (in the Abramsverse) a rapid-firing but relatively short-range and low-powered version.

I lean towards the Gene-verse having some technical limitation with there sensors that made it unreliable. There certainly is no reason firepower wise why it couldn't have been done, and the Galaxy has been seen to fire two beams at once from the strips.