Shoud Starfleet return to the Delta Quadrant?

[steamrunner]

"Dad, I want to be a hatmaker when I grow up."
"Son, you'll be an explorer like me...and you'll LIKE IT!!!"

Generational ships present a moral dilemma for me. I'd hate to think I'd be limiting my child's future just because they were born on a generational ship...

Plus - I can't see any ship - generational or otherwise - going that length of time without need of repairs/upgrades from a large facility such as a drydock or a starbase.

[Mikey]

1. What if no one wants to serve?

The number of officers needed for the one ship is also proportionally smaller than that for the entire fleet, in a similar manner to that of your available pool being smaller than that of the real Starfleet Academy. Granted when you limit the sample to those 1000 peoples' offspring, you can get a zero baseline result on a chance, but I don't think that this is too much of an issue.

2. If the ship requires three generations, what happens if there isn't enough coupling in the second generation to give way to the third?

By the third generation, I think a cultural taboo/tradition/ideology could have been set up, making a situation in which there are very few people indeed who consider it socially OK to not procreate.

I'd be more concerned about Lighthawk's point about having a relatively shallow gene pool.

[Lt. Staplic]

well you could always have "open" marriges to divesify the gene pool, kind of like the TNG episode ("Meriposa" I think?) where the encountered the two colonies both heading toward the verge of extinction. Their solution, every woman must have 3 children by 3 men.

[Mikey]

I think it was called "Up the Long Ladder." And I'm loath to take anything away from that episode.

[Lt. Staplic]

I think it was called "Up the Long Ladder." And I'm loath to take anything away from that episode.

, my supernatural psionic powers are telling me you didn't care for that episode.

[McAvoy]

You also have to take into account inbreeding. A galaxy class can carry around 1000 people if I remember right, which really isn't big enough for a viable breeding diversity. I believe you need around 5000 individuals to have a maintainable population without eventual inbreeding. Now of course, that is the number about you need for indefinate breeding purposes, if there is a planned number of generations involved, you could get it down, but every 20-30 years you add to the mission requires a bump in the number of people you need to take along. And that's assuming of course that everyone is human on board.

Inbreeding shouldn't be a problem with 1,000 or more people on board.

But I do personally think the crew would be much higher than 1,000 because of the fact the ship will be a generational ship. You have to take into account about crew losses that will happen during the trip. Also if the crew had many races on board it would be reasonable to assume either a) bring genetically similar species on board or b) bring enough of each species so that they have enough offspring without inbreeding.

It would also be reasonable to assume that their should be a near 1 to 1 ratio of both sexes.

I also think at least for the first generation that every crewmember and maybe even the captain either already have families or be family oriented. Certainly don't bring Captain Picard-esque people on board.

[Mark]

How practical would a generational explorer ship be though?

[Aaron]

If they are absolutely adamant about sending a manned mission, then they should really send a small fleet. One that Includes the GCS, a tender, a colony ship (setup for some nice recreation and for the extended families) and a couple escorts. None of this "lone wolf" crap.

[Captain Seafort]

Good point - it's effectively the same scenario we discussed in this thread - a small group of ships capable of many years of independent operation.

[Sionnach Glic]

Regarding a generational ship, I think one of the biggest problem such a vessel would face would be the second generation saying "Fuck this, why should I be doomed to spend all my life in this floating tin can?" and having the ship go somewhere closer instead.

[Lt. Staplic]

Regarding a generational ship, I think one of the biggest problem such a vessel would face would be the second generation saying "f**k this, why should I be doomed to spend all my life in this floating tin can?" and having the ship go somewhere closer instead.

that's kinda the point I was getting after with the idea that no one would want to serve...but ya, the problem with a generational ship is your leaving the fate of the mission up in the air based on the choices of people who didn't necessairily choose to go (gen. 2+).

[McAvoy]

If they are absolutely adamant about sending a manned mission, then they should really send a small fleet. One that Includes the GCS, a tender, a colony ship (setup for some nice recreation and for the extended families) and a couple escorts. None of this "lone wolf" crap.

I agree. But each ship would have to be capable of long missions, crew comfort, and just in case the flagship of this exploration task force is lost, at leats one of the escorts shoul dbe able to continue with the mission. I see a Galaxy class with maybe a Nebula or two with a couple of Intrepids. Small enough not to be noticed but still a powerful force should they encounter any post-Janeway pissed off aliens. If the Galaxy class is destroyed, then the Nebula class can take over and the Intrepids would be used as escorts and scouts. Using their speed and size to scout ahead and so forth.

On the other hand, Starfleet if they really wanted to could build a whole new design too.

[Lt. Staplic]

My ideal fleet for this type of mission would be:

1x Sovereign for the sheer power, it could also act as the flagship of the fleet.
2x Galaxy Class, relatively powerful, and huge amounts of storage space. Also, an idea, if they were to expand Shuttle Bay 3 (the one on the back of the Saucer) it could probably house a Defiant. So put a defiant in each one of the Galaxies, that way you have a little extra punch when you need it, but you don't have to have them powered up, draining resources the whole time.
2x Nebula Class, Weapon Pod variant, again big storage area and with the weapon pod, it would be good for a fight.
2x Intrepid Class, small, and fast, good for scouting, and if supplies start to run low, send them into a system to bargin for supplies rather than one of the big capital ships.

[kostmayer]

Doubt it would be a popular move with Starfleet, but could Cryogenics be the answer?

They could have 1, or maybe 2 back up crews in cold storage, ready to be thawed out to replace the original crew as they are wittled down by age or unnatural death.

[Tyyr]

Inbreeding shouldn't be a problem with 1,000 or more people on board.

No, it will be. Lighthawk's right, the minimum viable breeding population is about 5,000 breeding adults or 2,500 couples. Given the dangers of the mission and the fact that's the bare minimum, in other words you'll suffer from a LOT of birth defects but in a dozen or so generations get over it, I'd want something like 10 to 15 thousand people.

b) bring enough of each species so that they have enough offspring without inbreeding.

In Trek it doesn't really seem to matter though. Interbreeding between species doesn't seem to be a problem.

well you could always have "open" marriges to divesify the gene pool, kind of like the TNG episode ("Meriposa" I think?) where the encountered the two colonies both heading toward the verge of extinction. Their solution, every woman must have 3 children by 3 men.

That's not going to solve the problem. You're still stuck with only a limited number of genes and very quickly everyone is going to be related.