Star Wars engineering blunders

[Deepcrush]

There's one slight nitpick regarding your sizes - Allegiance is about the same size as Home One.

The Allegiance is a SSD of at least 3200m but the smallest canon SSD is the Eclipse at 8000m. So the Allegiance has to fall somewhere between. Since Homeone is around 3x the size of the MC80s or about 3600m but still isn't classed against the SSDs (battlecruisers or battleships) where the Allegiance is. She has to be larger then the Home One. Two factors could attach to this. A - Imp ships needed to be larger due to the weaker design. B - the Allegiance is just larger to fit its bracket.

As for the brackets, it doesn't make sense for the cruiser bracket to be so wide, while the destroyer bracket is so narrow - you're looking at everything from over 8km long down to less than a km, and then 1km down to 800m (the Munificent class star frigates). It makes more sense if SDs go up to at least a few km (say, two miles for round numbers), cruisers up to 8km or so, battleships to 15km (upper limit - the Sovs) and dreadnoughts beyond that (based on the fact that "dreadnought" seems to have become a ship type in its own right).

Hey, I don't make the brackets. Thats just were it falls. There's plenty of stuff in SW that doesn't make sense.

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

Honestly, I don't try to match up RL ship terms with SW terms. A star destroyer is a destroyer... except it's not a wet navy type of destroyer. It's got a carrier slung underneath it. *Shrugs*

TIE fighters... why were they kept around when Defenders came along?

[Captain Seafort]

The Allegiance is a SSD of at least 3200m but the smallest canon SSD is the Eclipse at 8000m. So the Allegiance has to fall somewhere between. Since Homeone is around 3x the size of the MC80s or about 3600m but still isn't classed against the SSDs (battlecruisers or battleships) where the Allegiance is. She has to be larger then the Home One. Two factors could attach to this. A - Imp ships needed to be larger due to the weaker design. B - the Allegiance is just larger to fit its bracket.

1) The smallest cannon SSD is the Allegiance herself, at somewhere between 2 and 3 miles, scaled from this image:



The Alliegance-type ships are flanking the Eclipse (16000m), and all three are roughly parallel, allowing us to get upper and lower limits for the length of the Allegiance types.

[Deepcrush]

Honestly, I don't try to match up RL ship terms with SW terms. A star destroyer is a destroyer... except it's not a wet navy type of destroyer. It's got a carrier slung underneath it. *Shrugs*

No. The Star Destroyer is a design family. Seafort and I had several ''debates" (world wars) over this before. There is a destroyer model Star Destroyer. But most Star Destroyers are in fact cruisers, with a few battlecruiser and battleship models on top of that.

As to having the carrier ability. Thats just standard for most capital ships in SW.

TIE fighters... why were they kept around when Defenders came along?

Think about the cost of replacing 72 fighters on 125,000 starships. Retraining all their pilots. Retraining all of their service crews. Retraining the officers on the new tactics involved in the use of these fighters. The Imp Navy went from using swarm tactics to now having a fighter that they aren't willing to lose mass numbers of.

Its a big change. Think of it as trying to restock the Russian army from T-74s to M1A1 MBTs. Thats a HUGEEEEEEEEEEE change up.

[Deepcrush]

1) The smallest cannon SSD is the Allegiance herself, at somewhere between 2 and 3 miles, scaled from this image:

The Alliegance-type ships are flanking the Eclipse (16000m), and all three are roughly parallel, allowing us to get upper and lower limits for the length of the Allegiance types.

(Sorry, couldn't get a cut paste pic to show. I just lined up three Allegiance class ships. Just use a mental image.)

They look to me to be slightly less then one third the length... ie (around) 5000m, which is a healthy bit of size over the Home One. Still, its a rough estimate. But, that at least gives us a starting point of the SSD bracket.

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

Honestly, I don't try to match up RL ship terms with SW terms. A star destroyer is a destroyer... except it's not a wet navy type of destroyer. It's got a carrier slung underneath it. *Shrugs*

No. The Star Destroyer is a design family. Seafort and I had several ''debates" (world wars) over this before. There is a destroyer model Star Destroyer. But most Star Destroyers are in fact cruisers, with a few battlecruiser and battleship models on top of that.

As to having the carrier ability. Thats just standard for most capital ships in SW.

TIE fighters... why were they kept around when Defenders came along?

Think about the cost of replacing 72 fighters on 125,000 starships. Retraining all their pilots. Retraining all of their service crews. Retraining the officers on the new tactics involved in the use of these fighters. The Imp Navy went from using swarm tactics to now having a fighter that they aren't willing to lose mass numbers of.

Its a big change. Think of it as trying to restock the Russian army from T-74s to M1A1 MBTs. Thats a HUGEEEEEEEEEEE change up.

I'll admit ignorance to navel terms, so okay.

Yes, a big change... but possible. Quality and quantity at once. Bye-bye, Rogue Squadron...

And yeah, they might be less willing to do swarm tactics, but those swarms would be orders of magnitude more effective. And since they own most of Known Space... easier to repalce than the Alliance.

[Deepcrush]

I'll admit ignorance to navel terms, so okay.

Thats why we have Seafort.

Yes, a big change... but possible. Quality and quantity at once. Bye-bye, Rogue Squadron...

I proposed this in other threads. The idea of using fighters and pilots equal to that of the Rebel X-Wings to battle the Alliance. The rebels just wouldn't have a chance. They'd be forced into fighting a raiding war. That doesn't mean they can't win, it just means its going to get a lot more costly and take a hell of a lot longer. That or another mass defection from the Imps.

And yeah, they might be less willing to do swarm tactics, but those swarms would be orders of magnitude more effective. And since they own most of Known Space... easier to repalce than the Alliance.

While its true that the Imps can replace their losses easier then the Alliance. Swarming is a bad idea for the TIE-Defender. Its a heavy fighter/bomber. 4 laser cannon, 2 Ion cannon, 3 dual warhead sleds which can fit a total of 18 proton torpedoes or 36 concussion missiles. Added to heavy shielding and armor, hyperdrive and long range life support.

Rather then swarm these fighters would do best if they attacked at long range. The swarm from them would be their weapons fire, not the fighters themselves. When the dogfighting begins they'd be best to keep a little distance between them to spread out their targets. That way, the only way to match them is to have equal numbers since most of the fighting will split to one on one engagements.

[Aaron]

I'll admit ignorance to navel terms, so okay.

As much as I (and others) like to flog that horse, naval ship classifications in RL have almost no relation to there original meanings now.

A cruiser was termed as such because it was the smallest vessel that could undertake a solo cruise.

A destroyer was originally Torpedo Boat Destroyer, a ship designed to protect battleships from torpedo boats.

A frigate was a fast, light vessel used for escort and then became almost exclusively an ASW platform.

Now we have ships that blend all three categories together, with size more of the determining factor (along with politics).

So, really you could call SW ships whatever the hell you feel like.

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

Thats why we have Seafort.



I proposed this in other threads. The idea of using fighters and pilots equal to that of the Rebel X-Wings to battle the Alliance. The rebels just wouldn't have a chance. They'd be forced into fighting a raiding war. That doesn't mean they can't win, it just means its going to get a lot more costly and take a hell of a lot longer. That or another mass defection from the Imps.



While its true that the Imps can replace their losses easier then the Alliance. Swarming is a bad idea for the TIE-Defender. Its a heavy fighter/bomber. 4 laser cannon, 2 Ion cannon, 3 dual warhead sleds which can fit a total of 18 proton torpedoes or 36 concussion missiles. Added to heavy shielding and armor, hyperdrive and long range life support.

Rather then swarm these fighters would do best if they attacked at long range. The swarm from them would be their weapons fire, not the fighters themselves. When the dogfighting begins they'd be best to keep a little distance between them to spread out their targets. That way, the only way to match them is to have equal numbers since most of the fighting will split to one on one engagements.

Seafort's a lot better at it than I am.

Hmm, didn't know they had that many missile weapons. Either load would be pretty damned powerful. Okay, better tactics than I. That's why I don't debate military stuff that often. I know when I'm out of my league there.

I'll admit ignorance to navel terms, so okay.

As much as I (and others) like to flog that horse, naval ship classifications in RL have almost no relation to there original meanings now.

A cruiser was termed as such because it was the smallest vessel that could undertake a solo cruise.

A destroyer was originally Torpedo Boat Destroyer, a ship designed to protect battleships from torpedo boats.

A frigate was a fast, light vessel used for escort and then became almost exclusively an ASW platform.

Now we have ships that blend all three categories together, with size more of the determining factor (along with politics).

So, really you could call SW ships whatever the hell you feel like.

That's pretty much what I do with SW ships, yeah. they can blelnd so much it's just... I don't wanna say a waste of time, but it's just... something.

I just call them cool-looking, for the most part.

[Deepcrush]

Star Wars has its own system it runs by. Its a pain to learn but you get used to it.

[Captain Seafort]

They look to me to be slightly less then one third the length... ie (around) 5000m, which is a healthy bit of size over the Home One. Still, its a rough estimate. But, that at least gives us a starting point of the SSD bracket.

Based on the foreground ship that's very close for an eyeball guess - a bit of fiddling in paint produces a figure of about 4800m. The problem is that it's in front of the Eclipse, so we have to account for perspective. The background ship works out at a bit over 3200m, and we know from an earlier image that they're flanking the Eclipse, so the true length must be somewhere between those figures. Home One is about 3800m long, which is almost exactly half-way between the two figure calculated.

No. The Star Destroyer is a design family. Seafort and I had several ''debates" (world wars) over this before. There is a destroyer model Star Destroyer. But most Star Destroyers are in fact cruisers, with a few battlecruiser and battleship models on top of that.

And I still think you're putting too much faith in an off-the-cuff comment by Solo while he was more interested in dodging lasers and calculating a jump than the nuances of starship designations. Based on the original term for cruiser you could apply it to everything from the Tantive IV upwards. Indeed, the term "cruiser" has been liberally applied to ships far smaller than the ISD (the Neb-B, for example, or the Carrack).

[Deepcrush]

Based on the foreground ship that's very close for an eyeball guess - a bit of fiddling in paint produces a figure of about 4800m. The problem is that it's in front of the Eclipse, so we have to account for perspective. The background ship works out at a bit over 3200m, and we know from an earlier image that they're flanking the Eclipse, so the true length must be somewhere between those figures. Home One is about 3800m long, which is almost exactly half-way between the two figure calculated.

That makes sense. Which also count account for the Home One being thought of as a Battleship by Imperial personnel when compared to ISDs. However its listed as a Cruiser, and normally Mon Cal ships are smaller then their counter parts. Not larger.

And I still think you're putting too much faith in an off-the-cuff comment by Solo while he was more interested in dodging lasers and calculating a jump than the nuances of starship designations.

Its not only that. Solo also talked about the same ships when they were planet side. He used the same term for the "Large Imperial Cruisers" as he did for the "Imperial Cruisers" chasing them. Those Cruisers were ISDs.

This is also supported by Starwars.com/databank that the Star Destroyer is a design family not limited to any one size or class.

The fact remains that we have three canon sources all saying that the ISDs are cruisers. There isn't a single canon source speaking against it. So, as far as that is treated, ISDs are cruisers. If we like it or agree with it doesn't matter. I would rather call them a heavy carrier. Their best features (IMO) is their fighter wings and ground forces. They have 16 heavy cannon and 44 light cannon vs the MC90 (the first combat version of MC) which 75 heavy cannon (this could be unfair since the MC90 lacks AA weaponry). Still, it leaves me thinking the ISD is a beefed up carrier instead of a true warship. IMO again.

Based on the original term for cruiser you could apply it to everything from the Tantive IV upwards. Indeed, the term "cruiser" has been liberally applied to ships far smaller than the ISD (the Neb-B, for example, or the Carrack).

The problem is that SW isn't basing their brackets on original wet navy terms and meanings. SW is instead using the terms in the more modern sense of size and power. While its best to bring our debates as close as possible to RL. Somethings just won't mix. The SW naval bracket is much more WW2 American then Age Of Sail Britain.

Corvettes - Frigates - Destroyers - Cruisers - Battlecruisers - Battleships - Dreadnoughts.

However even this doesn't make sense. Frigates and Destroyers should be switched, Cruisers shouldn't have such a large scale to themselves, and Battleships and Dreadnoughts are the same damn thing.

In the end SW leaves us with a size scale. Smallest to largest. If we are going to debate SW then we have to use the scale they provide. Otherwise its fanwank and not canon.

[Captain Seafort]

Its not only that. Solo also talked about the same ships when they were planet side. He used the same term for the "Large Imperial Cruisers" as he did for the "Imperial Cruisers" chasing them. Those Cruisers were ISDs.

Says who? Sure, he was talking about cruisers planetside. When he didn't have have the fleet breathing down his neck.

Regardless of what ISDs' official classification is, there's no evidence whatsoever that they're the cruisers referred to. I seem to recall a reference to "big Corellian ships" (probably a difference between the film and the novel), which would obviously rule out the Kuati ISDs.

Long-term I think we're better off agreeing to disagree. I very much doubt that either of us is going to change the other's mind on this issue.

Still, it leaves me thinking the ISD is a beefed up carrier instead of a true warship. IMO again.

That would fit the VenStar well, but I think the ISD is best thought of as a counterinsurgency platform - its the role that best fits its combination of starfighters, troops and big guns.

[Deepcrush]

Says who? Sure, he was talking about cruisers planetside. When he didn't have have the fleet breathing down his neck.

Umm, I'm not sure what this sentence means... Could you clear it up a bit?

Regardless of what ISDs' official classification is, there's no evidence whatsoever that they're the cruisers referred to. I seem to recall a reference to "big Corellian ships" (probably a difference between the film and the novel), which would obviously rule out the Kuati ISDs.

Aside from the official classification. On the planet he says, Imperial Cruisers. Up in space, he points to ISDs and says Imperial Cruisers. Three sources all pointing at the same thing. You don't like it and I understand that. But it doesn't change it.

I never read the novel. Seems to me a lot of people come in with lines from the novel that have been changed from what they were in the movies or just plain meaningless add ons. I've stuck to Movies & SiteSource first, Novels & tech books (unless stated canon) second & everything else third. In the film I believe the line was "Bulk Corellian Ships" but I can't promise you. I'll have to throw in the DVD and look it up.

Long-term I think we're better off agreeing to disagree. I very much doubt that either of us is going to change the other's mind on this issue.

I'll agree to this. Like I said before. Sometimes canon and reality have too much space between them. I can understand that it would be hard to ignore everything you know about Naval history for the sake of a movie. I had the same problem with Monroe and his "different" (only word I could think of to match it and stay nice, sorry ) views of history. So I'm guilty of the same.

[Sionnach Glic]

That would fit the VenStar well, but I think the ISD is best thought of as a counterinsurgency platform - its the role that best fits its combination of starfighters, troops and big guns.

It would also fit perfectly with what its duties would be.

Let's face it, as of ANH, the entire Imperial military was effectively a glorified police force, devoted to keeping law and order in the Empire's borders. No external race that they knew of at that point could threaten them. The ISD would be perfect for the duties that would come about from that.
Fast enough to chase down smugglers/pirates/political disidents with ships (they were catching up on the Falcon before it went to hyperspace in ANG).
Carries a shitload of troops, armoured vehicles and even garrison facilities onboard to allow the ship to quickly deploy reinforcements to the ground.
Carries fast and maneouverable fighters that allow it to police a wide area, and can attack insurgent forces from the air.
Has the power to slag a planet's surface, thus also making the ship an effective terror weapon.
Strong enough in a fight to take on the main warships of most races that the Empire hadn't yet conquered.

Really, the ship was perfect for such a role.