You Crush the Rebellion

[Sionnach Glic]

Yeah, if you're only talking about a few thousand people at most.

[stitch626]

Ah... got it.

[Deepcrush]

Thats because its easy to grab a few thousand troops. However, the more you try to control, the more you need to control it.

[Monroe]

Ah... got it.

Yeah what Austria did is they granted their subject races a whole lot of concessions then when the races rebelled inevetably, Austria was able to crack down on them. Now this plunged Austria into civil war for the next four years and the end result was the eventual reformation to the name Austria-Hungary cause the problems that Austria allowed to happen wouldn't go away. So its kind of debateable how successful it was. The fact they had to change the name of the entire country shows it wasn't completely successful But by allowing some parts like the areas in Italy and what not to rebel and break away it gave Austria a chance to come back full force and eliminate the most extreme of the people against the crown. It was a huge gamble and I wouldn't ever recommend it cause you're purposely allowing your country to have a civil war.

[Monroe]

Thats because its easy to grab a few thousand troops. However, the more you try to control, the more you need to control it.

That almost sounded like you agree with me

[Deepcrush]

Hey, even you can have some good ideas from time to time...

[Deepcrush]

Reply to me in that thread so we don't hijack this one

Good idea.

Oh come now, that's a matter of opinion.

Notice no one (other then stitch) ever disagreed... The opinion is pretty much universal minus most don't add the flare that I do.

Even you could admit I have supported my conclusions. You may think they're wrong conclusions but I have supported them.

You did support you conclusions... however your support was as meaningless as the conclusions. You ignored history, human nature and human ability.

And you've seen the fleet I would support them with (Not in enough detail yet I'll get that up soon). And I've changed at least one person's opinion of the plan.

You've made a good terror fleet, I've said as much. However, an open-canon OP isn't the same as a canon debate.

[Monroe]

Teaos liked my idea. And Mikey changed his mind from being opposed to being in favor so long as Pally was in charge. And you can't say I ignored history. We read history differently than each other but neither ignored it. I took examples of the worse dictators and said they were successful during their life times. You took the examples of their Empires and said they weren't. Now as a whole the Empires weren't because as I said the terror plan requires a strong leader. Its like a monarchy during a regency. They're turbulent. So yeah eventually if Pally dies I think it'll collapse. Where you and I disagree on is if it'll collapse during Palp's rule or not. So I wouldn't say either one of us ignored history. We just came to two different conclusions. Far as human nature and human ability I didn't ignore it that's what the Melgram experiment was for. But yet again we just have different views of what the Melgram experiment means.

[Deepcrush]

Teaos liked my idea.

Anyone can like an idea. However he never supported it.

And Mikey changed his mind from being opposed to being in favor so long as Pally was in charge.

He changed his mind from calling impossible to possible as long as Palp in charge. Saying something is possible is a long way from saying it will work.

And you can't say I ignored history. We read history differently than each other but neither ignored it.

Yeah, that comes from your not paying attention to any history that speaks against your ideas.

I took examples of the worse dictators and said they were successful during their life times. You took the examples of their Empires and said they weren't. Now as a whole the Empires weren't because as I said the terror plan requires a strong leader. Its like a monarchy during a regency. They're turbulent. So yeah eventually if Pally dies I think it'll collapse. Where you and I disagree on is if it'll collapse during Palp's rule or not. So I wouldn't say either one of us ignored history. We just came to two different conclusions.

The OP runs that we have to defeat the rebellion, not spawn more. Your overall plan does nothing but bring more people to the side of the rebellion plus risks creating more revolts on other worlds. Your leader may not be over thrown right away, he may live out his whole life. BUT! The rebellion lives, and may even grow stronger.

You also posted leader and declared that no one ever fought against them. I proved you wrong... you then just ignored these matters and ranted on. So, I'll continue to tell you that you're ignoring history so long as you in fact continue to do so.

Far as human nature and human ability I didn't ignore it that's what the Melgram experiment was for. But yet again we just have different views of what the Melgram experiment means.

One experiment based on open theory in controlled environments with controlled subjects and preplanned outcome desires. Wow, I wonder why that doesn't do anything against 6,000 years of history in real life...

[Monroe]

Yeah, that comes from your not paying attention to any history that speaks against your ideas.

I'm not ignoring any history. In fact I'm still patiently waiting for this history you speak of. You listed experts in the civil rights movement and one in colonial America to counter my primary source on the USSR. I'd like to see what you mean.

The OP runs that we have to defeat the rebellion, not spawn more. Your overall plan does nothing but bring more people to the side of the rebellion plus risks creating more revolts on other worlds.

Your plan doesn't either. My plan is designed to weaken the effects of the rebellion by making communication and recruitment more difficult and by making the weapons they have weaker.

Your leader may not be over thrown right away, he may live out his whole life. BUT! The rebellion lives, and may even grow stronger.

But if he lives his whole life in power isn't that a successful dictator?

You also posted leader and declared that no one ever fought against them. I proved you wrong... you then just ignored these matters and ranted on. So, I'll continue to tell you that you're ignoring history so long as you in fact continue to do so.

'No one' being a serious threat. And you said outside threats which as I said isn't a real issue in the Empire. I'm not ignoring history. Your examples are inconsequential.

One experiment based on open theory in controlled environments with controlled subjects and preplanned outcome desires. Wow, I wonder why that doesn't do anything against 6,000 years of history in real life...

History aside since I did post historical examples, where's your experiment that proves the Melgrim one is false? Besides its one experiment that has been repeated dozens of times.

[Deepcrush]

I'm not ignoring any history. In fact I'm still patiently waiting for this history you speak of. You listed experts in the civil rights movement and one in colonial America to counter my primary source on the USSR. I'd like to see what you mean.

The history ie names, locations, and actions there of were provided. Either go back and read the debate you pretend to be a part of or concede. Welcome to the real world. Every excuse you put forward about USSR was disproven, to which you ignored or tried to play off.

Your plan doesn't either. My plan is designed to weaken the effects of the rebellion by making communication and recruitment more difficult and by making the weapons they have weaker.

My plan was to remove the need of a rebellion. To which, everyone but you agreed was a solid and workable plan. Your plan involves hoping that people don't fight back...

But if he lives his whole life in power isn't that a successful dictator?

No, that makes him an old man with a desk job. The successful trait comes from the OP, which is yet another thing you ignore. Crush the Rebellion, not start more.

'No one' being a serious threat. And you said outside threats which as I said isn't a real issue in the Empire. I'm not ignoring history. Your examples are inconsequential.

Right, because the Empire has never had to fight a war... No one has ever fought against the Empire and won... You call them inconsequential but you've never proven them wrong. So, prove the items wrong or concede.

History aside since I did post historical examples, where's your experiment that proves the Melgrim one is false? Besides its one experiment that has been repeated dozens of times.

You posted historical examples that were proven wrong. Try again or concede.

The Melgrim Experiment has nothing to do with terror control over mass population. It also excludes the ability of the subjects to turn against their controllers. You experiment has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Even so, 40% openly turned down the action. That would mean your own misused experiment would turn 40% of your population against you. Good luck holding that one down. Either provide evidence that matters or concede.

Everything you've posted so far has been ripped apart. You've thrown up smoke screens of worthless data or pure out lies in order to cover for yourself. Either provide REAL evidence or concede you're as full of it as we've shown you to be.

[stitch626]

One problem Deep. The examples you posted of historians who disagree with Monroe do not appear to have anything to do with the Soviet Union, hence why he asked for a specific example from those people supporting your claim. As of yet, you have posted none.

[Deepcrush]

One problem Deep. The examples you posted of historians who disagree with Monroe do not appear to have anything to do with the Soviet Union, hence why he asked for a specific example from those people supporting your claim. As of yet, you have posted none.

The historians I posted are military and political historians. They all have notes against the use of terror as a useful service of control. For the USSR, I did post specific examples of its failings. Monroe ignored one and tried to excuse the other.

Counter points with evidence has been provided. Both too you and him earlier on in the debate.

[stitch626]

And Monroe has posted some that support his position, and you slide them away in the same manner he has.

[Deepcrush]

And Monroe has posted some that support his position, and you slide them away in the same manner he has.

Wrong, glad you can read...

(time for flaming to start again... fucking worthless people)

He posted things that he passed as support. ALL of which I have proven as worthless as his position.

Either read the debate like a good boy or just don't bother talking.