Federation V Stalingrad!

[Sionnach Glic]

I was watching clips of The Siege of AR-588 on YouTube earlier, and I started thinking about just how fracking useless the Feds' military is. So I was wondering if the Feds could beat real-life military forces from throughout history. Hence this thread.

There are several different scenarios in this thread, all revolving around replacing the defenders of Stalingrad with different armies from throughout history. Each scenario is itself split down further, one asking what would happen if the Feds attacked in summer, the other asking what would happen if they attacked in winter. The real-life Earth force is defending Stalingrad, the Feds are attacking.
By act of the almighty god Joe, all aircraft/shuttles are grounded, and no orbital support is available for the Feds. Assume there's some screwy minerals under Stalingrad that screws with transports. Everything else works just fine.

The setting: the city of Stalingrad, made famous for the battle between the Soviet Union and Germany during WW2.

The forces:

Feds:
All Scenarios:
300,000 Redshirts with phaser rifles and phaser pistols. One man out of every 50 has one of those bazooka things from ST:I
1,000 of those jeep things from ST:N

Humanity:
Scenario 1:
100,000 modern Russian infantry with their standard equipment.
1,000 modern Russian artillary cannons.
300 modern tanks.

What would happen in this scenario if the Feds attacked in A)summer or B)winter?

Scenario 2 (historical forces):
187,000 WW2 era Russian infantry.
2200 WW2 era Russian artillery.
400 WW2 era Russian tanks.

What would happen in this scenario if the Feds attacked in A)summer or B)winter?

Scenario 3:
200,000 19th century Russian infantry.
2,000 19th century Russian cannons.
10,000 19th century Russian cavalry.

What would happen in this scenario if the Feds attacked in A)summer or B)winter?

Scenario 4:
200,000 medieval Russian infantry.
50,000 medieval Russian cavalry.

What would happen in this scenario if the Feds attacked in A)summer or B)winter?

[Thorin]

The feds lose them all apart from the bottom one. The bazooka from ST:I has less power than a grenade launcher, no real benefit there. Modern day armies have some tactics and real training, they'd rip the feds to pieces and be home in time for supper.

[Nickswitz]

What if Starfleet was using MACO troops?

[Sionnach Glic]

The only difference between MACOs and Redshirts is that MACOs had slightly more ergonomic guns and understood the concept of kneeling while firing. Not much of a difference.

I'm sure Seafort will be along in a moment to give us a detailed run down of the outcomes of all the scenarios.

[Captain Seafort]

The MACOs die. They've got better kit and better training than your average goldshirt, but that's not saying much. They're still massively outclassed by any of the forces Rochey describes. Even medieval heavy cavalry would stand a good chance of inflicting heavy losses.

Up against any of the cannon-armed opponents, I wouldn't be surprised if the redshirts simply turned tail and ran when they first came under artillery fire. If they got any closer, then the concept of a Fed dune buggy trying to take on a BMP or T-34 is an amusing one. Even man for man, I'd bet on a Russian squaddie with an SMG or AK over a redshirt, even with the FC phaser rifles.

[Aaron]

The MACOs die. They've got better kit and better training than your average goldshirt, but that's not saying much. They're still massively outclassed by any of the forces Rochey describes. Even medieval heavy cavalry would stand a good chance of inflicting heavy losses.

Up against any of the cannon-armed opponents, I wouldn't be surprised if the redshirts simply turned tail and ran when they first came under artillery fire. If they got any closer, then the concept of a Fed dune buggy trying to take on a BMP or T-34 is an amusing one. Even man for man, I'd bet on a Russian squaddie with an SMG or AK over a redshirt, even with the FC phaser rifles.

I suspect a mass pants shiteing followed by a rout. The first Redshirt that joins the red mist club via mine or arty is going to unerve the rest, war in ST is very clean unlike modern combat which often involves dismemberment. WWII is even worse, thanks to the power of the individual small arms.

[Captain Seafort]

I'm sure Seafort will be along in a moment to give us a detailed run down of the outcomes of all the scenarios.

The first two are forgone conclusions - the Feds would be obliterated by artillery fire, probably before they even saw the Russians. In the third scenario, they'd probably be able to inflict casualties on the Russians, but their only real advantage would be the range and accuracy of their weapons. In a city, that advantage is cancelled out, and ten thousand cavalry would be a far more effective mobile force than a thousand dude buggies. Even the medieval force would stand a good chance of winning, provided they kept out of sight until the Feds moved into the city and then started attacking out of doorways. Again, the cavalry would be a very effective mobile force.

[Captain Seafort]

I suspect a mass pants shiteing followed by a rout. The first Redshirt that joins the red mist club via mine or arty is going to unerve the rest, war in ST is very clean unlike modern combat which often involves dismemberment. WWII is even worse, thanks to the power of the individual small arms.

"Unnerve" is probably the right word against the 19th century troops - unless the Russians have shells, or the Feds are stupid enough to advance in packed ranks, I can't imagine more than one redshirt being killed per shot. Killed very messily, but still only one. They'd probably start shitting themselves, but they'd probably keep moving, at least for a few shots, then stop, then leg it.

Against the two modern forces, I expect the battle would go something like:

Shell lands
A dozen or so redshirts get shredded
Everyone else drops their weapons and runs away screaming.
The end.

The other big issue is the weather. In winter they'd probably be alright - the cold-weather gear seen in "Regeneration" and "Timeless" seems pretty effective. In summer though, they're going to boil in those heavy black uniforms.

[Sionnach Glic]

Okay, so it seems that the glorious redshirt corps/MACOs is utterly fucked against anyone with muskets or any more powerful guns, and have a very good chance at being killed by sword-wielding infantry (no wonder the Klingons are considered such great warriors).

So now that it's a foregone conclusion, let's swap the scenario around. If the redshirts/MACOs are defending the city, and the various Earth armies are attacking, would the redshirts/MACOs be able to hold them off?

[Aaron]

"Unnerve" is probably the right word against the 19th century troops - unless the Russians have shells, or the Feds are stupid enough to advance in packed ranks, I can't imagine more than one redshirt being killed per shot. Killed very messily, but still only one. They'd probably start shitting themselves, but they'd probably keep moving, at least for a few shots, then stop, then leg it.

Against the two modern forces, I expect the battle would go something like:

Shell lands
A dozen or so redshirts get shredded
Everyone else drops their weapons and runs away screaming.
The end.

The other big issue is the weather. In winter they'd probably be alright - the cold-weather gear seen in "Regeneration" and "Timeless" seems pretty effective. In summer though, they're going to boil in those heavy black uniforms.

I'm not sure about the winter gear (the silver shite), it's not layered which will rapidly lead to sweating and then freezing to death if they don't practice proper winter warfare techniques. It's also...silver, making them a target for everyone.

[Aaron]

Okay, so it seems that the glorious redshirt corps/MACOs is utterly f***ed against anyone with muskets or any more powerful guns, and have a very good chance at being killed by sword-wielding infantry (no wonder the Klingons are considered such great warriors).

So now that it's a foregone conclusion, let's swap the scenario around. If the redshirts/MACOs are defending the city, and the various Earth armies are attacking, would the redshirts/MACOs be able to hold them off?

Depends how much artillery and tanks the Ruskies have, they'll certainly flatten the city before hand with artillery (Russian practice is to bombard an entire grid square in a strike, that's a square km) and advance strret by street using their tanks to take out strongpoints. The Russians suffer heavier casualties simply by being the attacker but the Redshirts still go down hard, if they don't flee at the first barrage.

[Captain Seafort]

Against the modern armies, it's the same result for the same reason - once the artillery starts dropping masonry round their ears the Feds are going to lose interest in the fight very quickly. They'll probably suffer heavier casualties, as they can't leg it out of range, and the Russians would simply keep hammering them.

Against the nineteenth century troops it'd take longer, but they'd still be subjected to a sustained artillery bombardment, and would quickly break. The Russians might suffer casualties in this scenario, as the Worfzookas would probably have the range and accuarcy to hit their bombardment positions.

Against the medieval troops the Feds might acually win. They're fighting from solid defensive positions, they've got ranged weapons, and they outnumber their opponent. If they get to hand-to-hand combat they'd be in trouble, but it should get to that point.

[Sionnach Glic]

Depends how much artillery and tanks the Ruskies have,

Let's just say they have the same forces as listed in the OP, and the positions are the only thing that has changed.

they'll certainly flatten the city before hand with artillery (Russian practice is to bombard an entire grid square in a strike, that's a square km) and advance strret by street using their tanks to take out strongpoints. The Russians suffer heavier casualties simply by being the attacker but the Redshirts still go down hard, if they don't flee at the first barrage.

I'd be interested in seeing the Reshirts' reaction to T-90s coming down the streets at them. I imagine they'd have seen pictures or something of old tanks, and would have been brought up to think they're crude and barbaric machines.
I can imagine them being amused at the "primitive" vehicles at first, then promptly shitting themselves when it starts taking out buildings.
Hell, I don't think the Redshirts even have anything that could threaten a tank. Even the bazooka thing from ST:I, as Thorin pointed out, has the power of a grenade at best. Seeing that thing rolling down the street, shrugging off phaser and bazooka fire and blowing people apart would probably get the Feds routing pretty quickly.

[Aaron]

Against the nineteenth century troops it'd take longer, but they'd still be subjected to a sustained artillery bombardment, and would quickly break. The Russians might suffer casualties in this scenario, as the Worfzookas would probably have the range and accuarcy to hit their bombardment positions.

I'm sure I don't have to tell you that SOP for Armies at the time in a siege was to dig in the arty. The Worfzooka won't do shite to a dirt berm.

Let's just say they have the same forces as listed in the OP, and the positions are the only thing that has changed.

Screwed, completely for everything but the medevil setting.

I'd be interested in seeing the Reshirts' reaction to T-90s coming down the streets at them. I imagine they'd have seen pictures or something of old tanks, and would have been brought up to think they're crude and barbaric machines.
I can imagine them being amused at the "primitive" vehicles at first, then promptly shitting themselves when it starts taking out buildings.
Hell, I don't think the Redshirts even have anything that could threaten a tank. Even the bazooka thing from ST:I, as Thorin pointed out, has the power of a grenade at best. Seeing that thing rolling down the street, shrugging off phaser and bazooka fire and blowing people apart would probably get the Feds routing pretty quickly.

The tanks may not have to fire a single round. Tanks are loud, indimidating machines. They literally shake the ground near them, few things are as scary as having one even near you. Especially if you've never seen or worked near one.

[Captain Seafort]

I'm sure I don't have to tell you that SOP for Armies at the time in a siege was to dig in the arty. The Worfzooka won't do shite to a dirt berm.

Very good point - I was thinking in terms of a field battery, whereas in this situation they'd likely take things slowly and conduct a formal siege. So much for the Feds even inflicting casualties.