Tuvix

[CluckyB]

Was Janeway right to murder Tuvix? She has said at other times that it is wrong to take one life, even if it saves thousands (for example, when they ran into that race that used alien body parts to fight a phage), yet here she took one life just to save two.

I personally was shocked by her actions--even more so than when Sisko wiped out that whole planet just to prove a point. I had spent the whole episode believing that either Tuvix was going to come down with a strange illness, or that the personality inside him would see how much the crew needed Tuvok and Nelix back and agree to go through with the procedure. To see a Starfleet captain actually commit murder like that was very stunning.

I really cannot even find a valid reason as to why she should've killed Tuvix, but 57.1 of you guys voted 'yes' in the poll a while back, so maybe at least someone here could shed some light on why they think Janeway made the right move.

On a side note, is it just me or did Tuvix sound a lot like Sisko in this episode? I couldn't help but notice some similarities in their character, which is interesting because Tuvix was a very good blend of the personalities of the two characters, and Sisko really isn't much like either character at all.

[Graham Kennedy]

Oh man, I had SUCH a runaround on this in the alt.startrek newsgroup when it aired.

My answer : No, and Janeway should have been tried for murder when she got back. For that matter, her crew should have removed her from command for making the attempt.

But it sure fitted Janeway's approach to command. Personally, I would have resigned my commission rather than serve under that woman.

[Monroe]

If you have a captain willing to kill I don't know how they'd react to you resigning your commission in the other side of the Galaxy so far away from home. Be kind of risky.

[celeritas]

from a medical standpoint, it is unquestionably unethical to force such a procedure on a sentient individual without his or her informed consent.

the only caveat is that tuvix's decision not to undergo separation back into tuvok and neelix was not stable over time -- or rather, we weren't able to accurately judge how stable his decision would be over time, since he really wasn't given much time at all. additionally, because he had wrestled with his decision to exist as tuvix or undergo separation, there is some ambiguity over how stable his decision was.

assuming that his decision is stable (which is likely the case), it cannot be justified even though his existence is at the cost of the lives of tuvok and neelix.

[Tiberius]

Oh man, I had SUCH a runaround on this in the alt.startrek newsgroup when it aired.

My answer : No, and Janeway should have been tried for murder when she got back. For that matter, her crew should have removed her from command for making the attempt.

But it sure fitted Janeway's approach to command. Personally, I would have resigned my commission rather than serve under that woman.

But what if it was the other way around? Let's say Paris was split into two beings. Would the crew be right to think paris was dead?

In any case, what of Tuvix was lost? Everything that made up Tuvix still existed within Neelix or Tuvok.

But I think we are missing the most important question...

What happened to the damned flower?

[Gerbsbrother]

This is totally my thoughts but Tuvix shouldn't really be counted as a person he was created in a transporter accident and doesn't have his own thoughts but rather the combined thoughts of tuvok and neelix. If i was in her shoes i would have done the same thing. think of it like this, would it have been fair to let him live and keep the other two from ever returning to normal if she had done that it would have been the same in a sense she would have killed the other two in order to save tuvix.

[Crushproof]

Don't see why they couldn't have just made clones of Neelix and Tuvok from a pattern left when they beamed down. It's been done before with Riker, and they could have kept all 3 crewman then

[Tiberius]

Don't see why they couldn't have just made clones of Neelix and Tuvok from a pattern left when they beamed down. It's been done before with Riker, and they could have kept all 3 crewman then

But Tom Riker was created when a person was locked onto with two transporter beams. Tuvix was not.

[Graham Kennedy]

I think it's a bit of a stretch to talk of Tuvix not being a real person because of his origin. We are told that in the Federation the critical test is sentience - remember The Measure of a Man, the case resolved around sentience, not Data's artificial nature. And as defined, sentience was "Intelligence, self awareness and consciousness." Tuvix clearly had all of those.

Honestly, anybody who can take a man who is begging and pleading for his life and deliberately kill him for the greater good on the grounds that he is not a "real" person... that's a truly horrific example to set in law. And we tend to look back in history at societies that have done such things with utter revulsion.

[Sionnach Glic]

Tuvix was sentient and had his own personality. Regardless of how he came to be Janeway had no right to kill him.
Of course, this IS Janeway we're talking about. She's not exactly a model officer.

[CluckyB]

Agreed. Anyone who expresses their wish to live, like Tuvix did, can not be considered 'not a person'.

Also, wouldn't Neelix and Tuvox wanted Tuvix to live, if given the choice? Either one of them would have sacrificed themselves to save someone else. I don't see how this situation would have been any different.

[Teaos]

I would have done what Janeway did.

I can see where you are coming from saying that it didn't want to die but I also believe that it wasn't "Alive" in the way Nelix and Tuvok were.

It was created from essence of two different people who their friends deemed (Rightly so) would have preffered to be seperated and live different lives.

Also I'm not sure you could call it "Murder". Murder is destroying life, Janeway didn't do this she just changed it's form.

[Foxbat]

Considering where they were (way far away from home) you're gonna need every crewman you've got. Separate them. But that's from a 'needs' point of view, not an ethical or moral standpoint.

What it seems like to me is you have a conflict between the right of the joined being to decide to end the lives of his progenitors, or to restore the lives of 2 crewman you already had. Personally, I would have allowed Tuvix to explain himself in a holo recording and then split them. If Tuvok and Neelix decide after hearing Tuvix's plea to join back together, then do it.

[CluckyB]

I would have done what Janeway did.

I can see where you are coming from saying that it didn't want to die but I also believe that it wasn't "Alive" in the way Nelix and Tuvok were.

He expressed a wish to be alive. He clearly showed signs of being alive. What more do you want from him?

It was created from essence of two different people who their friends deemed (Rightly so) would have preffered to be seperated and live different lives.

Foxbat's solution in an interesting one. I still think both men would have preffered to keep Tuvix alive.

Also I'm not sure you could call it "Murder". Murder is destroying life, Janeway didn't do this she just changed it's form.

So, if that is the case, the lives of Tuvox and Neelix were not actually destroyed in the transporter accident. If they were both still alive, and their collective conciousness inside Tuvix was expressing a wish to remain in that form, why did Janeway go against their personal wishes?

Considering where they were (way far away from home) you're gonna need every crewman you've got. Separate them. But that's from a 'needs' point of view, not an ethical or moral standpoint

If you ignore ethics and morals and just look at a 'needs' point of view, Voyager could have enslaved a whole race to help in ship functions and provide more crewmen.

[Teaos]

I still think both men would have preffered to keep Tuvix alive.

I doubt it. No one willingly gives up their life unless it is for a loved one. I would think the logical Vulcan would say Tuvix lives on in them both and Nelix just wouldn't want to.