How can the Founders avoid detection?

[Blackstar the Chakat]

This is but one of a long list of ways the Founders violate the laws of physics. Consider conservation of mass: If Odo becomes a seabird, he would still have to have the mass of a man, assuming similar density as a man when in humanoid form. A changeling mimicking a seagull would then be a seagull with the density of depleted uranium! There ain't no way in Janeway's Borg Hell that thing's getting off the ground under it's own power! If Odo becomes something bigger, he'd have to reduce his density, accordingly, as well, so it's hard to see him becoming super strong if he becomes a grizzly bear...

Of course, we have seen Founders become a bird and fly...

I got an idea from the Animorph series where the main characters were given the ability to 'morph' into any animal they touch. The explination for losing mass on smaller morphs was that it was moved to Zero-Space(like how we have subspace), but could only be held there for two earth hours. Maybe the founders can shift their unneeded mass to another dimension (maybe fluidic space? ) or take extra material from that dimension?

[Sonic Glitch]

This is but one of a long list of ways the Founders violate the laws of physics. Consider conservation of mass: If Odo becomes a seabird, he would still have to have the mass of a man, assuming similar density as a man when in humanoid form. A changeling mimicking a seagull would then be a seagull with the density of depleted uranium! There ain't no way in Janeway's Borg Hell that thing's getting off the ground under it's own power! If Odo becomes something bigger, he'd have to reduce his density, accordingly, as well, so it's hard to see him becoming super strong if he becomes a grizzly bear...

Of course, we have seen Founders become a bird and fly...

I got an idea from the Animorph series where the main characters were given the ability to 'morph' into any animal they touch. The explination for losing mass on smaller morphs was that it was moved to Zero-Space(like how we have subspace), but could only be held there for two earth hours. Maybe the founders can shift their unneeded mass to another dimension (maybe fluidic space? ) or take extra material from that dimension?

I remember one of the books essentially putting forth that theory. I don't know if it was ever mentioned in the series though. The Founders extra mass gets shunted into subspace through some sort of {technobabble...or maybe Biologic-babble) thing. I think it was the "Millenium Trilogy" that mentions it briefly.

[Captain Seafort]

I remember one of the books essentially putting forth that theory. I don't know if it was ever mentioned in the series though. The Founders extra mass gets shunted into subspace through some sort of {technobabble...or maybe Biologic-babble) thing. I think it was the "Millenium Trilogy" that mentions it briefly.

I remember another book that pointed out the exact same problem CPH did - that a Changeling's mass should remain the same regardless of its shape. Considering that I was a few years younger than Reliant at the time, and the book was aimed at that age group, it's a pretty damning indictment of Trek.

[Graham Kennedy]

One thing that struck me about the Founders is that they don't imitate things as such. It's tempting to think that when a Founder becomes a rock, it's actually rock-coloured and textured on the outside, but Founder-goo on the inside. But that's not so. We saw Odo become a glass once, and you could see through the glass. So Odo actually becomes the thing he is imitating, somehow.

I seem to recall he even said as much once. Scan him as a rock, and what you get is the readings you'd get from a rock.

[Tsukiyumi]

I remember another book that pointed out the exact same problem CPH did - that a Changeling's mass should remain the same regardless of its shape. Considering that I was a few years younger than Reliant at the time, and the book was aimed at that age group, it's a pretty damning indictment of Trek.

How old are you again, Seafort?

[Captain Seafort]

23 - this was back in the mid 90s.

[Tsukiyumi]

That was the discrepancy, then. I'd always assumed you were older than that, with your degree and debating skill.


My apologies. I'm certainly no ageist.

[Graham Kennedy]

Ron Moore once semi-seriously suggested that the Founders change size and shape in part because they are trans-dimensional beings. They shift bits of themselves in and out of another dimension, and therefore it is very easy for them to alter their mass because all you measure is how much of their mass is in our dimension.

[Mikey]

Ron Moore once semi-seriously suggested that the Founders change size and shape in part because they are trans-dimensional beings. They shift bits of themselves in and out of another dimension, and therefore it is very easy for them to alter their mass because all you measure is how much of their mass is in our dimension.

For real?

[Captain Picard's Hair]

At least he's aware of the problem

[Mark]

This has been bugging me forever. Odo's commbadge. Was it real or was he somehow able to mimic that as well? (To me that seems to farfetched. Being able to mimic the appearing on his "uniform" in one thing, but actually be able to mimic a working mechanical device like a communitactor seems to much) Assuming it WAS real, where did IT go when I shifted shape? Deep inside himself, or into that trans dimension thingee you guys were discussing? If he sort of absorbed it, then wouldn't that have rendered his ability to hide as the furniture in Quarks bar ineffective? All Quark had to do to know he was there was ask the computer where he was.

[Graham Kennedy]

Ron Moore once semi-seriously suggested that the Founders change size and shape in part because they are trans-dimensional beings. They shift bits of themselves in and out of another dimension, and therefore it is very easy for them to alter their mass because all you measure is how much of their mass is in our dimension.

For real?

He really did say it, yes. I'm not sure he really did mean it.

[Captain Picard's Hair]

This has been bugging me forever. Odo's commbadge. Was it real or was he somehow able to mimic that as well? (To me that seems to farfetched. Being able to mimic the appearing on his "uniform" in one thing, but actually be able to mimic a working mechanical device like a communitactor seems to much) Assuming it WAS real, where did IT go when I shifted shape? Deep inside himself, or into that trans dimension thingee you guys were discussing? If he sort of absorbed it, then wouldn't that have rendered his ability to hide as the furniture in Quarks bar ineffective? All Quark had to do to know he was there was ask the computer where he was.

If he turns into something with a bit of length in all three dimensions, it could be hidden, but we've also seen him exist as surfaces, not to mention the gas-energy-glowing whatever he became in Kira's presence...

[Mark]

This has been bugging me forever. Odo's commbadge. Was it real or was he somehow able to mimic that as well? (To me that seems to farfetched. Being able to mimic the appearing on his "uniform" in one thing, but actually be able to mimic a working mechanical device like a communitactor seems to much) Assuming it WAS real, where did IT go when I shifted shape? Deep inside himself, or into that trans dimension thingee you guys were discussing? If he sort of absorbed it, then wouldn't that have rendered his ability to hide as the furniture in Quarks bar ineffective? All Quark had to do to know he was there was ask the computer where he was.

If he turns into something with a bit of length in all three dimensions, it could be hidden, but we've also seen him exist as surfaces, not to mention the gas-energy-glowing whatever he became in Kira's presence...

:::scratching head:::

It this gonna be one of those Quantum things?

[Sionnach Glic]

Yes. I believe the only answer to this conundrum is the good old fashioned quantum explaination.