What if? III

[Teaos]

Ignoring the fact that it lost, you mean?

It lost because the E-E came. The founding point of this "what if?" is that it doesnt come.

So the fleet never gets organised, never find the weak point, and keeps on getting destroyed. Now whether Picard found a weak point to consintrate fire on or not is irrelivant. Even if it was just a generic spot the fleet wouldnt have done it. They had been fighting for hours with out consintrating fire so what would make them do it in the last 10 minutes.

nd how many can they transport with that? There were, at best, about a three or four dozen transported to the E-E. Hardly a massive invasion force.

Who knows? I'd guess about 30-50 a minute. And thats presuming there is only one working. Considering the cube still had large areas still working I'd say there would be more.

The fact that you have redundancies does not mean that a massive hole ripped into your ship, massive damage to the exterior and your power fluctuating won't stop the transporters from working.

It means exactly that. The Borg design their ships to work with massive damage still. Didnt someone say in "Q who?" that they estimate it could keep going with 80% of it destroyed?

Given that you can leave a Borg far behind with a casual five minutes of brisk walking, and also given the fact there'd be about a handful of Borg per city, at best, the chances of being caught are ridiculously slim. Hell, the chances of encountering one at all are virtualy non-existant.

Yes lots would run, some would not. Eventually they will get everyone. They start off with their original number. They manage to double or triple before anyone knows whats happening. Then people start running and a few start fighting. The Borg start hacking computers ect ect. People get scared/trapped/tired. Eventually they all fall.

We know that parts of the body aren't disolved during Borgification, so the mass doesn't come from the body itself.

...uh yeah it does. Where else would the room for all those bits come from?

How would they even know the Borg were there? The Federation would have to tell them.

Would the Feds ask an allie for help against the biggest threat anyone has ever faced... I'm thinking yes.

[Sionnach Glic]

It lost because the E-E came. The founding point of this "what if?" is that it doesnt come.

So the fleet never gets organised, never find the weak point, and keeps on getting destroyed. Now whether Picard found a weak point to consintrate fire on or not is irrelivant. Even if it was just a generic spot the fleet wouldnt have done it. They had been fighting for hours with out consintrating fire so what would make them do it in the last 10 minutes.

Nothing need make them do it. The Cube was wrecked. Even if they'd continued just firing wildly at it, a dozen or more Federation ships would eventualy take it down within a few minutes. Ten max.

Who knows? I'd guess about 30-50 a minute.

Okay, let's assume they can get 50 down per minute. Given that the Sphere was brought down in the first salvo from the E-E, they'd probably manage to get around 100 at best before they get wiped out. Given that Starfleet would be monitoring to see if any Borg beam down, those 100 aren't going to have very long before Starfleet responds.

And thats presuming there is only one working. Considering the cube still had large areas still working I'd say there would be more.

And they have a transporter in every area, do they?

It means exactly that. The Borg design their ships to work with massive damage still. [/quote

Yes, keep the ship going. Not keep every system working.

Didnt someone say in "Q who?" that they estimate it could keep going with 80% of it destroyed?

Yes, but that statement is BS for obvious reasons. FC alone shows a Cube functioning far from its top performance without 80% of it destroyed.

Yes lots would run, some would not.

So people are just going to stand still and do nothing as the Borg plod slowly towards them, even though there'll only be about one in the entire city?

Eventually they will get everyone

And how are they going to do that when they can't catch any of them?

They manage to double or triple before anyone knows whats happening. Then people start running and a few start fighting.

No, they beam down and people start running immediately. Given that they can't catch people and that they'd be too spread out to trap people, they're not going to be doubling their numbers anytime soon.

The Borg start hacking computers ect ect.

And how does this help them increase their numbers?

People get scared/trapped/tired. Eventually they all fall.

Not really, since any reasonably fit person can easily leave a Borg about a mile behind them with a brisk jog. As I said; Borg are an even bigger joke than zombies.

...uh yeah it does. Where else would the room for all those bits come from?

No, it doesn't. We see when both Picard and Seven are de-borgified they still have all their parts left.

Would the Feds ask an allie for help against the biggest threat anyone has ever faced... I'm thinking yes.

Would the Klingons agree to participate in a battle that could lose them many ships and personel? I'm thinking no.
Also, why didn't the Klingons come running to help in FC, then?

[Teaos]

Nothing need make them do it. The Cube was wrecked. Even if they'd continued just firing wildly at it, a dozen or more Federation ships would eventualy take it down within a few minutes. Ten max.

We dont know how long the battlehad been going for before the E-E got there but considering they were patrolling the Romulan boarder we can assume the battle had been going for a long time, several days is not beyond belief but more likely hours. Thus a Cube at what visually looks like 60-70% remaining will take more than 10 minutes.

Okay, let's assume they can get 50 down per minute. Given that the Sphere was brought down in the first salvo from the E-E, they'd probably manage to get around 100 at best before they get wiped out. Given that Starfleet would be monitoring to see if any Borg beam down, those 100 aren't going to have very long before Starfleet responds.

This is dependant on how long the Cube lasts for and as I said I think it could last at least half and hour and probably more.
30x50=1500

And they have a transporter in every area, do they?

Considering the Cube appeared to have 60-70% remaining it is well with in belief they still have several working transporters.

Would the Klingons agree to participate in a battle that could lose them many ships and personel? I'm thinking no.
Also, why didn't the Klingons come running to help in FC, then?

Better to lose a dozen ships now than thousands of ships and hundreds of planets in a year.

They didnt come because they werent asked. I'm saying the Federation would ask for help and probably get it once their Capital world got taken over by the Borg.

[Sionnach Glic]

We dont know how long the battlehad been going for before the E-E got there but considering they were patrolling the Romulan boarder we can assume the battle had been going for a long time, several days is not beyond belief but more likely hours. Thus a Cube at what visually looks like 60-70% remaining will take more than 10 minutes.

We saw the Cube going down in about ten seconds after someone had the brains to order them to concentrate their fire.

This is dependant on how long the Cube lasts for and as I said I think it could last at least half and hour and probably more.
30x50=1500

You're ignoring the fact that we saw the Cube go down rapidly after someone got some tactical sense.

Considering the Cube appeared to have 60-70% remaining it is well with in belief they still have several working transporters.

It had 60-70% of its mass remaining. Not 60-70% of its systems functioning. Also, their power was fluctuating and they were in the middle of a battle. Given that a stiff breeze seems to interfere with transporters, I doubt they'd be able to beam to a planet through all that.

Better to lose a dozen ships now than thousands of ships and hundreds of planets in a year.

Except they're not going to lose thousands of ships in a year. The Federation can deal with the Borg, and the Klingons would know that. Therefore, they have no reason to get involved.

[Teaos]

We saw the Cube going down in about ten seconds after someone had the brains to order them to concentrate their fire.

You're ignoring the fact that we saw the Cube go down rapidly after someone got some tactical sense.

And your missing my point. The battle had been going for hours if not days and no one had used good tactics so why the hell would they start do it in the last 10 minutes. With out Picard the battle would of continued to be a free for all.

It had 60-70% of its mass remaining. Not 60-70% of its systems functioning. Also, their power was fluctuating and they were in the middle of a battle. Given that a stiff breeze seems to interfere with transporters, I doubt they'd be able to beam to a planet through all that.

This isnt the Federation we're talking about. The Borg can be smashed around and keep on ticking. Also their trasnporters are far in advanced of others. They can beam undetected on to a ship and through shields if I remember correctly.

Except they're not going to lose thousands of ships in a year. The Federation can deal with the Borg, and the Klingons would know that. Therefore, they have no reason to get involved.

Can deal with the Borg? You mean the organisation that just lost a fleet of ships and their homeworld can deal with it?

[Talos]

I am sure that if that was the scenario of the movie the feds would somehow find a way to triumph...

[Teaos]

I'm not sure the Feds have the balls to destroy their home planet.

[Talos]

I am sure they haven't ... but they would still find a way to win without destroying earth...

[Teaos]

How? We've seen Borgified planets. You'd literally have to blow of the crust to get rid of them.

[Sionnach Glic]

And your missing my point. The battle had been going for hours if not days and no one had used good tactics so why the hell would they start do it in the last 10 minutes. With out Picard the battle would of continued to be a free for all.

They didn't all need to concentrate fire at all. All it takes is for some captain to think "hey, maybe firing a few torps into the big hole in the side of that thing is a good idea".

This isnt the Federation we're talking about. The Borg can be smashed around and keep on ticking. Also their trasnporters are far in advanced of others. They can beam undetected on to a ship and through shields if I remember correctly.

Doesn't mean they can beam through masses of explosions and radiation with their power fluctuating.

Can deal with the Borg? You mean the organisation that just lost a fleet of ships and their homeworld can deal with it?

Yes. The Borg are now confined to one planet, with no way off. Pull a few ships into orbit and commence bombardment of any areas that become taken over by the Borg.

[Teaos]

They didn't all need to concentrate fire at all. All it takes is for some captain to think "hey, maybe firing a few torps into the big hole in the side of that thing is a good idea".

It had taken hours or days to knock out 30-40% of the cube. You expect them to be able to finish it off in 10 minutes?

Doesn't mean they can beam through masses of explosions and radiation with their power fluctuating.

No evidence they cant.

Yes. The Borg are now confined to one planet, with no way off. Pull a few ships into orbit and commence bombardment of any areas that become taken over by the Borg.

No way off? They would capture some ships on the suface and probably build some of their own pretty fast.

The Klingons would take the risk. They would help an allie wipe out the Borg and THEN take advantage of the weakened Federation.

[Sionnach Glic]

It had taken hours or days to knock out 30-40% of the cube. You expect them to be able to finish it off in 10 minutes?

It had taken hours or days to knock out its shield. Now that the shield is down, a few torps going off inside the ship will finish the battle nicely.

No evidence they cant.

No evidence they can.

No way off? They would capture some ships on the suface and probably build some of their own pretty fast.

Said ships would be unarmed civilian ships that would be blasted to pieces by the orbiting Federation fleet the moment they took off.

The Klingons would take the risk. They would help an allie wipe out the Borg and THEN take advantage of the weakened Federation.

Why would they take the risk of losing dozens of ships when they can just sit back, watch the Federation crumble and not have to worry about the Borg at all?

[Teaos]

It had taken hours or days to knock out its shield. Now that the shield is down, a few torps going off inside the ship will finish the battle nicely.

I revise my statement that the Cube was down to 60% Looking at the video bellow it seems to be still have 85-90%. They seem to only have lost a bit of outer hull. This to me would indicate they would still have lots of transporters aswell.

Also in the clip the Defiant was about to ram and die and the Flagship (admirals) had just gone bang. The fleet was is chaos and about to be wiped up.

For the win

No evidence they can.

We know they can transport under a variety of conditions. Its up to you to prove they cant do it here.

Said ships would be unarmed civilian ships that would be blasted to pieces by the orbiting Federation fleet the moment they took off.

Ships modified with Borg technology.

Why would they take the risk of losing dozens of ships when they can just sit back, watch the Federation crumble and not have to worry about the Borg at all?

Because they arent retarded. They are allies and they wouldnt want the Borg sitting next door.

[Mikey]

Just a quick point regarding the Borg chasing after civvies on the planet - it doesn't matter how much people can outrun Borg drones. Not to reopen old wounds, but we've seen Borg unable to dela as effectively with ballistic attacks as they are with directed-energy weapons. The civilian population would likely have far more access to improvised weapons as well as other ballistic weapons, rather than SOTA Starfleet weaponry; plus, even a civilian is more prone to fight when a) he's defending his home, and b) his fellows outnumber the enemy by about 100 - 500:1 or more.

[Sionnach Glic]

I revise my statement that the Cube was down to 60% Looking at the video bellow it seems to be still have 85-90%. They seem to only have lost a bit of outer hull. This to me would indicate they would still have lots of transporters aswell.

Also in the clip the Defiant was about to ram and die and the Flagship (admirals) had just gone bang. The fleet was is chaos and about to be wiped up.

"The Cube has sustained heavy damage to its outer hull, I'm reading fluctuations in their power grid."

And I'll point out again that the fact it has large portions of its mass remaining means nothing. Every shot against the Cube was penetrating its outer hull and blasting into the inside. Given that most of the Cube's interior is hollow, there's plenty of room for the blast to spread out and cause heavy damage to the interior. That alone indicates heavy internal damage. The fact that its power was fluctuating is even more damning.
Its shields were down, and nothing was stopping the Federation fleet from damaging the Cube's hull. Given that you can see at least a dozen Federation ships were still operational, they could blast the Cube's outer hull right off even if they all started firing wildly.

Oh, and the video showed the Cube farther away from Earth than I remembered. If it continued at the pace it was going in the clip, it'd take longer than an hour to get to Earth.

We know they can transport under a variety of conditions. Its up to you to prove they cant do it here.

When have we seen Borg transporters work when their power is fluctuating, under heavy combat conditions, heavy damage to the ship itself, blasts tearing through the interior of the ship, and with detonations and radiation bathing the ship's exterior?
We've never seen anyone teleport through those conditions. Therefore the logical assumption is that the Borg can't.

Ships modified with Borg technology.

And Starfleet is just going to sit there and do nothing while they modify these ships? No, they'll blast them from orbit, which we know they can do.

Because they arent retarded. They are allies and they wouldnt want the Borg sitting next door.

Except the Federation can deal with the Borg themselves. There is no reason for the Klingons to become involved.