What if? III

[Teaos]

My problem with the civilians fighting is that this is the 24th century not the 21st.

While we may pick up a cricket bat to smash some zombie arse (cookie for reference) those pampered civilians wont know what hit them.

[Mikey]

My problem with the civilians fighting is that this is the 24th century not the 21st.

While we may pick up a cricket bat to smash some zombie arse (cookie for reference) those pampered civilians wont know what hit them.

The same could've been said about Starfleet "troops" before the Dominion War. However, easy life or not, one cannot understimate the willingness of people to defend their homes and their families. I grew up in a pretty typical, fortunate suburban life - both parents at home, no alcoholism or abuse, upper middle class, etc. I never grew up needing to know how to fight. But I got jumped once on the way back to the subway from a concert by a bunch of skinheads who had overheard a conversation of mine, and when I heard the first shouts of, "You're dead, kike," I learned how to kick ass pretty damned quick.

[Teaos]

And I'll point out again that the fact it has large portions of its mass remaining means nothing. Every shot against the Cube was penetrating its outer hull and blasting into the inside. Given that most of the Cube's interior is hollow, there's plenty of room for the blast to spread out and cause heavy damage to the interior. That alone indicates heavy internal damage. The fact that its power was fluctuating is even more damning.
Its shields were down, and nothing was stopping the Federation fleet from damaging the Cube's hull. Given that you can see at least a dozen Federation ships were still operational, they could blast the Cube's outer hull right off even if they all started firing wildly.

A lot of the shots we see did no apparent damage to it.

The Borgs hull is still as strong as nails in many spots and the fleet is firing all over the place.

In the 1 minute or so of footage we see 2 and a half ships get destroyed. That fleet is not going to last long.

Oh, and the video showed the Cube farther away from Earth than I remembered. If it continued at the pace it was going in the clip, it'd take longer than an hour to get to Earth.

Yeah slightly further away than what I remembered aswell but I wouldnt put it at an hour, maybe 30 minutes.

When have we seen Borg transporters work when their power is fluctuating, under heavy combat conditions, heavy damage to the ship itself, blasts tearing through the interior of the ship, and with detonations and radiation bathing the ship's exterior?
We've never seen anyone teleport through those conditions. Therefore the logical assumption is that the Borg can't.

We've seen the borg transport while a enemies shields were up and transport with out detection. We have no proof that the bit of damage they sustained would stop transport. And even if the cubes were damaged there is still the sphere.

And Starfleet is just going to sit there and do nothing while they modify these ships? No, they'll blast them from orbit, which we know they can do.

Starfleet just lost everyship for several light years.

Except the Federation can deal with the Borg themselves. There is no reason for the Klingons to become involved.

No the Federation cant. They just lost a shit load of ships and the Borg need to be delt with before they get to entrenched. The Klingons need to help or they are as screwed as the Federation.

[Sionnach Glic]

A lot of the shots we see did no apparent damage to it.

We saw the shots penetrating the hull. That alone indicates that the interior must be taking heavy damage.

In the 1 minute or so of footage we see 2 and a half ships get destroyed. That fleet is not going to last long.

And we saw the Cube go down after about 30 seconds of concentrated fire when someone got half a brain.

Yeah slightly further away than what I remembered aswell but I wouldnt put it at an hour, maybe 30 minutes.

You did see the snail's pace they were flying at? An hour's being generous.

We've seen the borg transport while a enemies shields were up and transport with out detection.

When have we seen Borg transporters work when their power is fluctuating, under heavy combat conditions, heavy damage to the ship itself, blasts tearing through the interior of the ship, and with detonations and radiation bathing the ship's exterior?

We have no proof that the bit of damage they sustained would stop transport.

Given the damage they'd sustained, the fact that their power was fluctuating, and the fact that they weren't beaming troops onto the Federation ships to stop them, the logical conclusion is that their transporters were offline.

And even if the cubes were damaged there is still the sphere.

Didn't the Sphere go down after a single salvo by the E-E? Hardly going to last long enough to get to Earth.

Starfleet just lost everyship for several light years.

Actualy, the E-E is still within close enough range, and I'd imagine there'd be a few other ships that are armed but too weak to participate in a battle lying around. In the event that the fleet was destroyed, they'd be called in. All they need to do is be sufficient to participate in orbital bombardmant, which any ship with a gun can do.

No the Federation cant. They just lost a **** load of ships and the Borg need to be delt with before they get to entrenched.

The Borg have no ships left that are a threat, and are confined to a single planet. The Federation has plenty of time to muster a group of ships to blast the surface clean of Borg. Problem solved.

[Tsukiyumi]

On the point of transporters not working, the E-E was under fire, but still managed to beam the Defiant's survivors on board. Of course, their power wasn't fluctuating, and they weren't taking a pounding to their hull.

[Teaos]

We saw the shots penetrating the hull. That alone indicates that the interior must be taking heavy damage.

No we saw multiple shots hit the hull and cause a flash, no idication that they did any damage.

And we saw the Cube go down after about 30 seconds of concentrated fire when someone got half a brain.

1) Picard isnt there

2) The fleet hadnt been fighting with a brain for hours so why would they start now.

3) the Flagship had just been destoryed probably making them fight even more retardedly.

You did see the snail's pace they were flying at? An hour's being generous.

Meh, no way to tell but I doubt it would take to long and I think the Cubes got several hours of fight left in it anyway.

When have we seen Borg transporters work when their power is fluctuating, under heavy combat conditions, heavy damage to the ship itself, blasts tearing through the interior of the ship, and with detonations and radiation bathing the ship's exterior?

Given the damage they'd sustained, the fact that their power was fluctuating, and the fact that they weren't beaming troops onto the Federation ships to stop them, the logical conclusion is that their transporters were offline.

We have no evidence they cant so we presume they can. Also why would they beam drones on a ship they can easily blast away?

Didn't the Sphere go down after a single salvo by the E-E? Hardly going to last long enough to get to Earth.

My point was that it still has transporters and if its still in the Cube it can use its transporters.

Actualy, the E-E is still within close enough range, and I'd imagine there'd be a few other ships that are armed but too weak to participate in a battle lying around. In the event that the fleet was destroyed, they'd be called in. All they need to do is be sufficient to participate in orbital bombardmant, which any ship with a gun can do.

They didnt want Picard their due to his history with the Borg or to risk the new E-E.

And considering there was an Oberth in the fleet it would seem they threw everything they had at the Borg.

The Borg have no ships left that are a threat, and are confined to a single planet. The Federation has plenty of time to muster a group of ships to blast the surface clean of Borg. Problem solved.

The Federation is in chaos and the Klingons would take that chance. Hell if they do help they have a fleet of their ships in the core of the Federation...


This is just like old times Rochey We havent had a chance to go at it in awhile.

[Sionnach Glic]

No we saw multiple shots hit the hull and cause a flash, no idication that they did any damage.

Watch the video again. You can see shots hitting the hull and penetrating. Hell, there was a massive hole ripped in the side of the thing. Even if it only manages to blast a hole in 1 metre of the ship's hull, it'll cause massive damage to the interior.

1) Picard isnt there

2) The fleet hadnt been fighting with a brain for hours so why would they start now.

3) the Flagship had just been destoryed probably making them fight even more retardedly.

1) Picard doesn't need to be there. All it takes is one person thinking "hey, maybe if we all fire together....".

2) Probably because Admiral Moron is now dead. And how do we even know they weren't fighting inteligently before? We saw a grand total of two minutes of the battle. They'd probably spent all the previous time trying to get the Borg's shield down. When the flagship went down they probably broke up any formation they had. It wouldn't take long to re-establish proper tactics.

3) Not really, all it takes is for whoever's next in the chain of command to bring the fleet back together again.

We have no evidence they cant so we presume they can.

Wrong. You must provide evidence that they can, the logical conclusion is that they can't.

My point was that it still has transporters and if its still in the Cube it can use its transporters.

Great, so they might get...what? 50, 60 people down before being blown up. Yeah, I can so see that force taking over a planet of billions.

They didnt want Picard their due to his history with the Borg or to risk the new E-E.

And you seriously think they'd stick with that mentality if Earth starts getting invaded? Of course not.

The Federation is in chaos and the Klingons would take that chance.

I assume you mean they wouldn't take that chance?
Why not? They'd know the Federation would be capable of taking the Borg out. There's no need for them to get involved, and it's to their advantage to sit back and watch.

Hell if they do help they have a fleet of their ships in the core of the Federation...

I thought you said they wanted to help, not conquer?

This is just like old times Rochey We havent had a chance to go at it in awhile.

I know, I was just thinking that.

[Teaos]

Watch the video again. You can see shots hitting the hull and penetrating. Hell, there was a massive hole ripped in the side of the thing. Even if it only manages to blast a hole in 1 metre of the ship's hull, it'll cause massive damage to the interior.

Some shots did a bit of damage but some obviously did none at all by the looks of it. An considering a cube is 1km wide a few nicks and scratches arent going to do anything. You cant destroy a tank with sand paper.

1) Picard doesn't need to be there. All it takes is one person thinking "hey, maybe if we all fire together....".

2) Probably because Admiral Moron is now dead. And how do we even know they weren't fighting inteligently before? We saw a grand total of two minutes of the battle. They'd probably spent all the previous time trying to get the Borg's shield down. When the flagship went down they probably broke up any formation they had. It wouldn't take long to re-establish proper tactics.

3) Not really, all it takes is for whoever's next in the chain of command to bring the fleet back together again.

The battle had been going on for hours if not days with very little damage dont to the Cube. That points at shit tactics and no one there having a clue. The battle was going from bad to worse.

Wrong. You must provide evidence that they can, the logical conclusion is that they can't.

We know Transporters work and we know they have transporters. It is up to you to prove the Cube could not use this standard technology.

Great, so they might get...what? 50, 60 people down before being blown up. Yeah, I can so see that force taking over a planet of billions.

That transporter along with the ones on the cube which are probably still working could land hundreds of drones. Hell the Cube landed what seems like a good couple of dozen in second on the E-E.

And you seriously think they'd stick with that mentality if Earth starts getting invaded? Of course not.

You are right. They would have the E-E to lead a counter attack. One ship.

I thought you said they wanted to help, not conquer?

I'm merely pointing out yet another advantage to them helping. You know, apart from the fact that they are getting rid of the Borg in the Alpha Quadrant.

[Tsukiyumi]

...While we may pick up a cricket bat to smash some zombie arse (cookie for reference)...

Shaun of the Dead. I'll take an oatmeal/white chocolate, please.

[Sionnach Glic]

Some shots did a bit of damage but some obviously did none at all by the looks of it. An considering a cube is 1km wide a few nicks and scratches arent going to do anything. You cant destroy a tank with sand paper.

1) A Cube is actualy 3KM wide.
2) They did little damage to the exterior of the Cube, for the simple fact that it's armoured. But we saw that they were breaking through the hull, thus causing heavy damage to the interior.

The battle had been going on for hours if not days with very little damage dont to the Cube. That points at **** tactics and no one there having a clue. The battle was going from bad to worse.

They had probably spent those hours trying to batter the Cube's shields down. It's no wonder they didn't get far until the shield itself collapsed.

We know Transporters work and we know they have transporters.

Incorrect. Even if we assume the Cube still had operational transporters, we have never seen Borg teleporters work through the afore-mentioned environment. The burden of proof is upon you to prove that they could do so.

It is up to you to prove the Cube could not use this standard technology.

Wrong, the burden of proof is on you to prove that it's possible to beam through those conditions.

Hell the Cube landed what seems like a good couple of dozen in second on the E-E.

Wasn't it the Sphere that beamed those over? You know, the sphere that was blown up before getting anywhere near Earth by a single ship.

You are right. They would have the E-E to lead a counter attack. One ship.

Yes, one ship. Probably the most powerful ship in the quadrant, against a bunch of Borg stranded on a planet with no way off and no way of retaliating. Fish in a barrel.

I'm merely pointing out yet another advantage to them helping. You know, apart from the fact that they are getting rid of the Borg in the Alpha Quadrant

Getting involved will lead to losses on their side, while helping the Federation maintain stability. If they make a move against the Federation after that, they'll have a few ships in the middle of Federation territory with no supply lines and every ship the Federation can spare heading straight at them. Hardly a great position.
On the other hand, sitting back and letting the Federation take down the Borg on their own is very advantageous. The Federation would be thrown into chaos, recovering from severe losses to its military and probably trying to fight off a dozen or more opertunistic encroachments on its territory by minor neighbouring powers. The Klingon Empire would be the most powerful faction left in the quadrant.

[Tsukiyumi]

So, does anyone think the sphere would've gone back in time if the E-E hadn't been there? If so, there would've been no one to follow it back, and the Federation would've winked out of existence.

Just a thought.

[Sonic Glitch]

So, does anyone think the sphere would've gone back in time if the E-E hadn't been there? If so, there would've been no one to follow it back, and the Federation would've winked out of existence.

Just a thought.

I think that *was* the plan. "Hmm...we can't seem to beat them now, so let's go back and prevent them from ever organizing then assimilate the various species as we please."

[Sionnach Glic]

I think the plan was that if the Cube went down, the Sphere would jump back in time to kill Cochrane.

[Tsukiyumi]

So... if Picard and the E-E weren't there, even if the fleet defeated the Cube, the Borg would still win.

[Mikey]

Rather, if the cube won the battle, it would have gone on to Earth in "normal" time; going back in time was an option for the eventuality of the cube losing the battle.