What Would YOU Do?

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Wrong. You've proven they are sentient, with inteligence around the same level as that of a wolf of dolphin.

does that make it less wrong?

And do you conceed that crossing dimensions is a natural ability for them?

Can you prove that it is a natural ability?

[Sionnach Glic]

does that make it less wrong?

No more wrong than the process that went into making the burger I'm eating.

Can you prove that it is a natural ability?

Pay attention, I just did:

We see no technology. We see them holding no devices. We see no indication of any unatural modifications to their bodies. We see them crossing dimensions.
Ergo the best conclusion is that it is a natural ability. Case closed.

You conveniently ignored that.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

does that make it less wrong?

No more wrong than the process that went into making the burger I'm eating.

except that cows are raised that way from birth to death, and many do consider that wrong. But these were beings of intelligence and were being hunted for no justifiable reason

[Sionnach Glic]

except that cows are raised that way from birth to death, and many do consider that wrong.

1) Cows are raised to die, but they don't know that. They are not raised waiting for the day they'll be ground up into mince and sold cheaply.
2) I really don't care what those people think.

But these were beings of intelligence and were being hunted for no justifiable reason

Actualy, there was a perfectly justifiable reason: it benefited us. Just as killing cows benefits us.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

But these were beings of intelligence and were being hunted for no justifiable reason

Actualy, there was a perfectly justifiable reason: it benefited us. Just as killing cows benefits us.

No, it benefited a handful of people who were committing mass murder for a little speed.

[Sionnach Glic]

And hundreds of cows every year will die to benefit one person. Your point?

[Blackstar the Chakat]

And hundreds of cows every year will die to benefit one person. Your point?

Cows aren't sapient, cows aren't murdered for non-essential purposes. And I doubt it's hundreds of cows for one person. Anyone who eats that much meat will probably be dead in less then a year.

[Sionnach Glic]

Cows aren't sapient,

Neither are these aliens.

cows aren't murdered for non-essential purposes.

They're killed as a source of food. Technicaly they are killed for non-essential purposes as we could survive on other food sources instead.
These aliens were killed as a source of power to allow a ship and its crew to get back home alive. Otherwise they would have died. Just as essential (if not more so) than the cows.

And I doubt it's hundreds of cows for one person. Anyone who eats that much meat will probably be dead in less then a year.

Fine, then, hundreds of cows for roughly the same amount of people that was on the Equinox.

[stitch626]

Well, I'm not going to get into the morality of what they did or whether the aliens were sapient or not. But I still maintain that the crew were fools for continuing to use the aliens as fuel when their ship was being torn apart by the aliens. Its like shooting a bear with a .38 as it tears your car apart to get to you.

Hey, is this new: ?

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Cows aren't sapient,

Neither are these aliens.

You haven't proven that yet.

cows aren't murdered for non-essential purposes.

They're killed as a source of food. Technicaly they are killed for non-essential purposes as we could survive on other food sources instead.
These aliens were killed as a source of power to allow a ship and its crew to get back home alive. Otherwise they would have died. Just as essential (if not more so) than the cows.[/quote]

They could have just as easily colonized a planet in the Delta Quadrant. It would solve the moral dilemma and the dying trying to get home problem

[Sionnach Glic]

Yes, it's new, Stitch. You can thank me for its inclusion. 8)

You haven't proven that yet.

Burden of proof is on you.

They could have just as easily colonized a planet in the Delta Quadrant. It would solve the moral dilemma and the dying trying to get home problem

And we could all become vegetarians and let cows live. But we don't. Why? Because we benefit from them.

[stitch626]

I have a question...
Would the fact that the aliens could understand written English (they knew that it was the Equinox, or rather its crew, that were doing the harm, and they knew them by name... "Give us Equinox." And it had to be written because no one told them that the Equinox was the problem.) and the fact that they understood complete sentences in English (when Janeway assured them of her help) be sufficient proof of sapience?

[Sionnach Glic]

Perhaps. Do you have specific quotes of what the aliens said on-hand?

[stitch626]

Well, besides "shreak shreak"...
They were said to say (by the aliens who worshiped them and translated their language to English (or at least to something that the UT could translate)) "Give us Equinox! Give us Equinox!"
This was without any mention of the word Equinox in their presence.

For anymore quotes, I'd need to watch the episode again.

[Sionnach Glic]

I'm not sure if that can be considered true sapience, then. They clearly have some sort of telepathic abilities if they were able to pluck the name of the ship out of thin air. That doesn't indicate learning ability.