Star Trek Vs Modern Earth

[sunnyside]

There are sound physical reasons why KE shielding would be impossible for Borg, in addition to its absence - conservation of momentum means that the implants generating the field would rip through the drone's body on impact, causing massive internal injuries. That's why it would be impossible.

Um. Now you're just being silly. Treknology already has gravitons altering what "straight" is to a projectile or whatever it is they do. Even if the defense was tractor beam based there isn't any reason a second beam couldn't be used to push against something else to counter the incoming momentum. Or if it were a "solid" like field that is projected the impact of the bullet could instead mostly be trasfered to the air on the other side.

Finally a field like that could simply "cushon" the bullets. You can fire a gun without it ripping you hand off and you have the same momentum transfer. The bullet just puts that momenum into a tiny package that hits over a tiny time. An implant with some size or one that slowly decelerates the bullets would be fine even if it isn't doing anythign else fancy.

See the above point about CoM. I'm not saying they're stupid (at least not due to the lack of KE shields), merely that they lack the capability. Also, there is evidence that they're incapable of producing KE shields - the fact they've never used them.

They've only been shot at once. If you stopped an episode after the first phaser shot you'd have the same result since it takes a few before they adapt.

Also even if they had the ability to stop hand to hand attacks(which is different from stoppign bullets) they'd probably run around with it off since that's how they assimilate stuff.

The TYPE of weapon does matter, the TYPE of technology being used does matter. Voyager didn't say "our tractor beam is too weak", they said it was impervious to their technology.

An 18th century naval officer would probably say the same thing if confronted by a Dreadnought.

It doesn't really matter. Whatever biofields these things put out indavidually they stymi Voyagers stuff. Even if Borg could block hand to hand their fields and such might not work near those things.

[Captain Seafort]

All your suggestion involve reducing the force on the entire Borg, which is irrelevent. Bullets simply don't carry enough momentum to move a person much, let alone injure them, if the impact is spread out. What matters is the transfer of the bullet's momentum to the implant generating the shield - we know they're not mounted on the exoskeleton since Seven was able to generate shields after hers was removed. That transfer would effectively turn the implant into a bullet, ripping it out of its place in the drone's body and inflicting serious internal injuries.

They've only been shot at once. If you stopped an episode after the first phaser shot you'd have the same result since it takes a few before they adapt.

The two Borg Picard shot on the holodeck, fine. You've also got the the one whose arm Worf cut off to consider, who should have adapted to KE attacks if they're capable of doing so, and the fact that Picard (who knew more about the Borg than anyone else) believed that fighting hand-to-hand would be effective (or at least possible.

Also even if they had the ability to stop hand to hand attacks (which is different from stoppign bullets)

KE is KE. The only difference is the pressure applied for a given force, due to the bullet's smaller area.

It doesn't really matter. Whatever biofields these things put out indavidually they stymi Voyagers stuff. Even if Borg could block hand to hand their fields and such might not work near those things.

Again, the fields are a product of 8472's ships, not 8472 themselves.

[Tsukiyumi]

...Again, the fields are a product of 8472's ships, not 8472 themselves.

In the episode "Prey", Voyager's internal sensors couldn't lock on to the individual 8472 on board because it was emitting some kind of bio scattering field. They only overcame the problem at the end when Seven beamed it onto the Hirogen ship. IIRC, they couldn't even pinpoint its location.

[Duskofdead]

...Again, the fields are a product of 8472's ships, not 8472 themselves.

In the episode "Prey", Voyager's internal sensors couldn't lock on to the individual 8472 on board because it was emitting some kind of bio scattering field. They only overcame the problem at the end when Seven beamed it onto the Hirogen ship. IIRC, they couldn't even pinpoint its location.

Yeah, and they got the lock when the thing was flipping out and doing WWF moves on a Hirogen.. that was the source of my comment earlier that it might be a "conscious effort", and that when a member of 8472 is weakened or distracted, the field can be worked around or diminishes.

It's not just a matter of Federation inadequacy, either, since the Borg clearly were also unable to merely beam 8472 boarders off their vessels.

[Monroe]

To be fair the Borg don't do that with human invaders.

[Duskofdead]

And why should we not come to this conclusion? The Borg have never once been shown to use KE shields, even in situations where it would have been advantageous to do so. Why should we assume this will suddenly change when up against modern Earth?

Because their whole shtick is adaptation. Aside from their interconnectedness, and arguably their arrogance, there is nothing that has ever proved a single silver bullet against them. Any new tactic works a few times until adaptations are made. The only exception was 8472, where it was implied (though not necessarily safe to assume would be true "forever") that the Borg were incapable of adapting to their superior firepower/technology without first assimilating a member of their species. (A rule which seems to have been made up on the spot just for 8472 since Voyager, coming up against the Borg with technology from the future, had its more advanced techs "assimilated", or at least the Queen said a few ships were able to assimilate.)

Not seeing them use KE, and taking that to mean "they can never ever ever ever ever ever ever adapt to KE attacks" means "their whole thing is adaptation, they're just unable to do anything against an enemy who uses mass drivers on their starships or firearms/chemically based artillery in single combat."

Certainly at some point in their past, the Borg didn't have big monstrous cube ships capable of wiping out enemies from orbit. And they got over KE weapons, somehow.

From all indications, they didn't at all.

If they did or didn't we wouldn't know, because nothing else they did had any apparent effect whatsoever on 8472 either.

True, we don't know how common boarding actions were for 8472. However, boarding tactics were virtualy always used by the Borg. It'd stand to reason that they'd have deployed KE shields on their troops when they started going up against 8472. Since there was no evidence of shields, we have no reason to believe they did at all. The fact that it would make sense for them to do so, combined with all the other evidence for a lack of KE shields from other series, leads us to the conclusion that they had none.

The Borg expect KE attacks, but they are usually, despite their criticized reflexes or tactics, more than a match in close combat for other races. They made Worf all badass in First Contact, but the first time Worf went hand to hand with a drone, he had to yell for Data to come help him as he was unable to overpower the drone. The crew of the Ent-E was ordered to fight hand to hand--- according to how you and Seafort make the argument sound, they should have won back the ship in about 8 minutes. But the Borg are cybernetically enhanced, have artificially increased strength, and can assimilate literally by "pushing a button" when in close range. The fact that none of this worked against 8472, nor did ANY of their technology or tactics save for ramming (which by any estimate is a very cost-inefficient way to fight them given a cube had to be sacrificed to destroy a single, small, single-pilot bioship), all reinforces the conclusion that their abilities and technology simply couldn't provide any meaningful effectiveness against 8472. It doesn't drive a nail into the coffin that the Borg could never possibly adapt any sort of KE defense.

[Duskofdead]

To be fair the Borg don't do that with human invaders.

They can simply assimilate a human invader.

[sunnyside]

Sorry I can't give a reply.

But again the Borgs mode of operation is to engage in hand to hand combat. So even if they could put up a shield that prevents bullets they would either bring it down or not have it affect hand to hand combat.

Again, think Dune.

Did you ever read the Dune series? You really should.

[Duskofdead]

Sorry I can't give a reply.

But again the Borgs mode of operation is to engage in hand to hand combat. So even if they could put up a shield that prevents bullets they would either bring it down or not have it affect hand to hand combat.

Again, think Dune.

Did you ever read the Dune series? You really should.

That was waht I was thinking too. That it's not an issue of "they can't", but that perahps it is a combination of

1) They don't need it very often-- most societies using KE to defend themselves are unworthy of assimilation
2) It's more important for shields to block energy weapons (which can be used from range) in a ship boarding situation than KE attacks, where the Borg are not exactly weak. (Can go toe to toe with Klingons.)
3) Might interfere with ability to interact with surroundings, technology, or assimilation.

[Mikey]

A Dune-type shield would block high-speed projectiles but not low-speed HTH attacks. The root of this debate is that neither of these types of attacks have been shown to be affected by any Borg shielding.

[Duskofdead]

A Dune-type shield would block high-speed projectiles but not low-speed HTH attacks. The root of this debate is that neither of these types of attacks have been shown to be affected by any Borg shielding.

Correct, we haven't seen evidence of that. But that's not the "root" of this debate, the root of this debate is going with an assumption that the Borg can not possibly ever use, create, or adapt KE shielding, which basically puts them at the mercy of any civilization out there using firearms, explosives and mass drivers.

[Mikey]

Same premise. "We haven't seen it so it doesn't exist" vs. "We haven't seen but it must exist."

[Duskofdead]

I would characterize my sentiment on it as being closer to They don't routinely use it, but it would be fatally foolish for someone to make their preparations assuming the Borg can't adapt.

At the time the Enterprise-D was working on its deflector weapon, there was no evidence the Borg could defend against that particular energy frequency. A mistake to assume that meant they couldn't.

[Mikey]

That makes more sense. But your comments seem to imply more "do" than "could."

[Duskofdead]

That makes more sense. But your comments seem to imply more "do" than "could."

My mistake, I am unintentionally mirroring the set-in-stone reasoning of opposite side of the debate. I think there's a difference between "we haven't seen evidence of it, so we can assume they don't do it" and "we can absolutely rule out they are capable of doing it, and make plans accordingly."

I think the mistake of the latter type of thinking has been made again, and again, with regards to the Borg.