Sisko's Worst Command Decisions

[BigJKU316]

More than that you are mistaken about the purpose of waging a war. The purpose is simply to impose your will on the opposition. Many wars are about territory, but not all.

Wrong, wars are about resources. Human, oil, ore, farmland, money... doesn't matter.

One can have diplomacy about resources, or economic exchanges about resources. That statement is overly simplistic.

War is a means to and end and you seem to be mixing the two together. War could be about resources. You could fight a war to exterminate someone just because you don't like them. You could fight a war because of fear. Some cultures fight just because it is part of their culture and there really is no larger purpose.

I mean I don't see the Dominion fighting for any specific resources. They wanted to control people, but not really for their resource value, just because they feared them.

[BigJKU316]

Yep. War sucks, and lots of people die. In fact, the bit about people dying is probably the main reason for it sucking. Can't argue, won't argue. Is this, however, somehow relevant?

Yeah, OK. And in space, how do you propose to do that without taking and holding territory? Further, why would you do that without taking and holding territory?

The point is the amount of people it takes to really just run over and conquer someone who is willing to fight you as hard as they can. That point is this. If you assume a planet can mobilize 5% of their population then Earth right now would mobilize about 300 Million troops assuming it was unified and mobilized on a scale far far less than it did during World War II.

The evacuation limit of a Galaxy Class Starship is listed at 15,000 people. Assuming you could get twice that many soldiers onto a similarly sized, purpose built transport you would need 10,000 ships the size of Galaxy Class Starships dedicated to doing nothing but moving soldiers to invade one Earth sized planet. It is just not happening given what we see on screen for fleets and resources.

I mean you are dealing with a society that can basically replicate phaser rifles. There is no reason they could not, in an emergency, give one to every person between 18 and 60. Then how many troops do you need? The point is if that planet is willing to fight your invasion you simply cannot win, at least with any reasonable expenditure of effort on your part.

This is the same problem the US ran into with the prospective invasion of Japan. It was one thing to fight an Amphibious campaign on islands both sides had to bring troops and supplies to. Landing in Japan was an very different thing and no one wanted any part of it.

As for how you break someones will without taking their territory it seems pretty easy. Destroy their fleet, then go after their infrastructure. Fact is without a fleet to defend themselves you can wipe out just about any real, effective chance they have to win from space. Once they are denied the ability to build major starships to challenge you they can't really be more than an annoyance. It is a hell of a lot cheaper to spare even a few hundred starships to simply keep them beaten down than it is to say invade Romulus or Earth.

[Deepcrush]

One can have diplomacy about resources, or economic exchanges about resources. That statement is overly simplistic.

First, you have to read the statement. It says "Wars are..." Not "Only wars are..."
Second, war is simple. Its about taking or defending what you want.

War is a means to and end and you seem to be mixing the two together.

Mixing what two is that? If you mean your lack of understanding and reality then yes... the two were bound to get mixed in this thread.

War could be about resources. You could fight a war to exterminate someone just because you don't like them. You could fight a war because of fear.

A war of resources, be it to take from someone, defend from someone or deny someone... its still a war of resources.

Some cultures fight just because it is part of their culture and there really is no larger purpose.

Find a culture out there that fights for NOTHING and then bring it here.

I mean I don't see the Dominion fighting for any specific resources. They wanted to control people, but not really for their resource value, just because they feared them.

You mean, that was a war about denying your enemy the ability to harm you. In such as destroying their fleets, controlling their material wealth and defeating their will...

Yeah, that all involves resources.

Again. Wars are, have been and always will be based on resources. The wanting of, defending of or denial of. It still ends in the same way.

[BigJKU316]

I agree with you for the most part. I just did not express myself very well. And with a broader definition of resources you are certainly right. I was looking at a more narrow definition of resources as land, people or something valuable. With the Dominion I guess I am just saying I don't see a drive for resources being the motivation behind what they do, it is just a necessary evil to allowing them to control the solids. If they could get 100% assurance they would not be harmed they would not see a need for a war for any of the other benefits they get.

When I speak of cultures that fight for no real reason it would be a reference to the more ritualistic tribal warfare you would see in a lot of early human history. You see a bit of it today with the Dani people in New Guinea but you are right, for the most part it has died out as people figure out possibly getting stabbed with a spear was not really the best way to transition to manhood.

I could see the Klingons very nearly falling into this category with the honor killings. Especially in their early incarnations where they seemed to often be looking for a fight for no particular reason and with no larger goal in mind.

[Deepcrush]

Dominion - if they just wanted to be safe they could have fortified the wormhole. They didn't. They looked to expand into the AQ.

Meaningless combat - Trails of manhood were needed to prepare warriors to defend their homes. That isn't meaningless. Carrying it on as a tradition acts as a bonding for their people. Again, not meaningless.

Klingons - their honor can be "forgotten" very easily when needed so. Such as for profit or glory. Glory and Honor are a resource in the KE. Houses and Great Houses earn their titles by such, and as result earn their fiefs. Which provide resources.

As I told you. It comes down to resources. Always.

[SomosFuga]

We know as a fact that at least some planets had been captured and/or conquered in ST and other sci-fi universes so at least in some cases is not only possible but worth it.

You are talking about planets with several billions of people but probably most planets are not as heavily populated.

[Coalition]

Let's see... defending or attempting to conquer with boots on the ground, versus simplyi DBZ from orbit... yeah, they'd both obliterate the planet's civilization infrastructure the same...

The problem with the DBZ from orbit, is the amount of time the main characters spend screaming in order to charge up.

[BigJKU316]

We know as a fact that at least some planets had been captured and/or conquered in ST and other sci-fi universes so at least in some cases is not only possible but worth it.

You are talking about planets with several billions of people but probably most planets are not as heavily populated.

Yeah, I agree with that and that is why I said it would make sense for ground troops to be invovled in fights for colony type planets or mining planets or things like that were the population was not as heavy. I can even see how many larger planets would lay down their arms to avoid fighting for every city.

But I still would contend that doing something like invading Earth or the Klingon Homeworld is probably beyond the power of anyone we have seen roaming the AQ but the Borg unless the defenders decide to give up or you are willing to liberally use fire support from space (in which case you might as well just bombard the planet into submission anyway). You just need to many people to do it in a more conventional manner.

[Captain Seafort]

Yeah, I agree with that and that is why I said it would make sense for ground troops to be invovled in fights for colony type planets or mining planets or things like that were the population was not as heavy.

This type of planet seems to be the most common in Trek - the vast majority of worlds seen have populations in the thousands or tens of thousands.

But I still would contend that doing something like invading Earth or the Klingon Homeworld is probably beyond the power of anyone we have seen roaming the AQ but the Borg unless the defenders decide to give up or you are willing to liberally use fire support from space (in which case you might as well just bombard the planet into submission anyway). You just need to many people to do it in a more conventional manner.

Define "too many". Even in the late 19th century the concept of laying siege to an entire country was unheard of. The idea of committing two and a half million men to attacking a single city was equally insane. Within half a century both these things had happened.

The only time we've seen a situation in which the idea of an attack on a heavily populated planet came up was WYLB, and the approach of the Allied commanders wasn't "our only options are blockade or bombardment" but "this is going to be bloody". Before Odo persuaded Sisko to send him down to try and negotiate a surrender, the plan was to take Cardassia block by block.

[BigJKU316]

Yeah, I agree with that and that is why I said it would make sense for ground troops to be invovled in fights for colony type planets or mining planets or things like that were the population was not as heavy.

This type of planet seems to be the most common in Trek - the vast majority of worlds seen have populations in the thousands or tens of thousands.

But I still would contend that doing something like invading Earth or the Klingon Homeworld is probably beyond the power of anyone we have seen roaming the AQ but the Borg unless the defenders decide to give up or you are willing to liberally use fire support from space (in which case you might as well just bombard the planet into submission anyway). You just need to many people to do it in a more conventional manner.

Define "too many". Even in the late 19th century the concept of laying siege to an entire country was unheard of. The idea of committing two and a half million men to attacking a single city was equally insane. Within half a century both these things had happened.

The only time we've seen a situation in which the idea of an attack on a heavily populated planet came up was WYLB, and the approach of the Allied commanders wasn't "our only options are blockade or bombardment" but "this is going to be bloody". Before Odo persuaded Sisko to send him down to try and negotiate a surrender, the plan was to take Cardassia block by block.

Oh I fully think you could do it if you really really wanted too. There are enough people and probably enough resources that if you put the time in you could build a fleet to transport all the troops you would need and then take a homeworld type planet block by block.

It is just that no group in Trek has ever shown us a fleet this large.

On Cardassia we have no real idea how many Dominion Soldiers there were. It might have been doable. I am talking about an opposed landing on a planet where the government and people both are willing to fight you. I just have not seen the tech or numbers that indicates any of these powers could really do it. I mean you would need thousands of ships with dedicated landing craft to pull it off. The fleet sizes just don't support a major opposed invasion in my view.

Now, there could be huge fleets of transports and supply ships we just never see. I don't know. But with fleets numbering in the hundreds I just don't see the capacity for it.

[Deepcrush]

Well, Martok saw a force of half a million Cardassian troops as less then a weeks worth of concern. He dismissed the whole matter out of hand. So its not so hard to believe that it is fully possible to transport vast numbers of troops.

[SomosFuga]

On Cardassia we have no real idea how many Dominion Soldiers there were. It might have been doable. I am talking about an opposed landing on a planet where the government and people both are willing to fight you. I just have not seen the tech or numbers that indicates any of these powers could really do it. I mean you would need thousands of ships with dedicated landing craft to pull it off. The fleet sizes just don't support a major opposed invasion in my view.

In this case, the cardassian military (what's left of it) and most (if not all) of the population is on the side of the invaders so the situation is not how it was raised before. The only defenders would be a shapeshifter, some vortas and the jem'hadar. Of course we don't know how many jem'hadar there are and they can rise more and even the vorta may fight if the time comes.

You just need to many people to do it in a more conventional manner.

I'm sure you could find a couple millions of bayorans willing to go to Cardassia Prime as part of an invading force even if they know they probably wont be fighting cardassians. Plus Bayor is prety near so it wouldn't be a long trip for the transport ships.

[Tsukiyumi]

The problem with the DBZ from orbit, is the amount of time the main characters spend screaming in order to charge up.

[Mikey]

The point is the amount of people it takes to really just run over and conquer someone who is willing to fight you as hard as they can. That point is this. If you assume a planet can mobilize 5% of their population then Earth right now would mobilize about 300 Million troops assuming it was unified and mobilized on a scale far far less than it did during World War II.

The evacuation limit of a Galaxy Class Starship is listed at 15,000 people. Assuming you could get twice that many soldiers onto a similarly sized, purpose built transport you would need 10,000 ships the size of Galaxy Class Starships dedicated to doing nothing but moving soldiers to invade one Earth sized planet. It is just not happening given what we see on screen for fleets and resources.

This seems to be a bit of an inadvertent red herring. We weren't discussing Starfeet's ability (or lack thereof) to prosecute a war, we were discussing the necessity of boots on the ground.

I mean you are dealing with a society that can basically replicate phaser rifles. There is no reason they could not, in an emergency, give one to every person between 18 and 60. Then how many troops do you need? The point is if that planet is willing to fight your invasion you simply cannot win, at least with any reasonable expenditure of effort on your part.

We have recently discussed the idea of a UFP draft, and came to a general consensus that it would be at least unfeasible, and at worst the cause for huge schisms in the UFP. As to succesful invasion being impossible... hmmm. I guess you're right. Just like Savoy, just like D-Day, just like Warsaw...

This is the same problem the US ran into with the prospective invasion of Japan. It was one thing to fight an Amphibious campaign on islands both sides had to bring troops and supplies to. Landing in Japan was an very different thing and no one wanted any part of it.

Of course nobody wanted any part of it - it would have been awfully bloody. But the U.S. was certainly ready to do it, and had more than reasonable hopes for success.Saying that nobody wanted any part of it is both obvious and irrelevant. Nobody would ever want any part of any type siege or invasion, but almost everybody recognizes the need for such at times.

As for how you break someones will without taking their territory it seems pretty easy. Destroy their fleet, then go after their infrastructure. Fact is without a fleet to defend themselves you can wipe out just about any real, effective chance they have to win from space. Once they are denied the ability to build major starships to challenge you they can't really be more than an annoyance. It is a hell of a lot cheaper to spare even a few hundred starships to simply keep them beaten down than it is to say invade Romulus or Earth.

...and also a lot more useless. In that case, what have you won save a very finite, and relatively short-lived, period of time?

[BigJKU316]

This seems to be a bit of an inadvertent red herring. We weren't discussing Starfeet's ability (or lack thereof) to prosecute a war, we were discussing the necessity of boots on the ground.

I am more discussing the fact that the fleets we see are simply far too small to accomplish such a thing, on the part of every power. I have never disputed that you need boots on the ground, I am simply saying that the idea of drafting an army, even if you could politically do so, to attempt some sort of large scale opposed invasion of a planet like Earth seems useless because no one has ever demonstrated the transport ability to move such a force.

We have recently discussed the idea of a UFP draft, and came to a general consensus that it would be at least unfeasible, and at worst the cause for huge schisms in the UFP. As to succesful invasion being impossible... hmmm. I guess you're right. Just like Savoy, just like D-Day, just like Warsaw...

D-Day is actually a good example of why an opposed landing is so difficult to acheive and it was only possibly because a huge majority of German strength was deployed against the Soviets. There were nearly 160 German Divisions in the Soviet Union against just about 60 in France. Simply put if that landing was all the Germans had to worry about no amount of planning or effort would have made it possible.

Again, I am not saying you can't invade a homeworld type planet. I am saying that you will need likely tens of thousands of ships to carry the troops necessary to do the job. Hell, D-Day needed nearly 7,000 ships and they were crossing a narrow body of water. The Amphibious Fleet for the invasion of Kyushu had over 1,200 major ampibious ships, plus thousands of landing craft.

Of course nobody wanted any part of it - it would have been awfully bloody. But the U.S. was certainly ready to do it, and had more than reasonable hopes for success.Saying that nobody wanted any part of it is both obvious and irrelevant. Nobody would ever want any part of any type siege or invasion, but almost everybody recognizes the need for such at times.

The point being that after the course of a long war the US, which was going into WWII a pretty pacifistic nation itself compared to the other major powers, was looking for any alternative to spending a ton of their own lives to enforce an end to things. They were willing to starve, fire bomb and eventually use the most powerful weapon anyone on Earth had ever invented in an effort not to have to do it. Serious consideration was given to using chemical weapons as well.


I have no problem stating there is a huge value in Marine type units. The ability to invade and take a particular planet is something everyone needs to have and there are plenty of smallish colonies and resource type planets that it would make sense to take from your enemy and hold.

I just don't see the ship building capacity to pull it off against the most populated worlds unless they give up on their own accord. We would need to see much larger fleets to really imagine that this was possible IMHO.