War of the Week: VII

[Teaos]

Because at the start of this I said that, a) there is no stations guarding the wormhole b) each side has seen this conflict coming for several years and are thus fully mobilised.

[Deepcrush]

Wow its hard to debate with someone who didnt even watch the show.

Oh, woe be, the crying game starts again... Some goat humping hippie trying to talk war... Like a retard in a sack race, you just can't see the other side of things. Really, I hope you can come up with a better comment then this. Not that I would expect much from you on this subject but still, give it a whirl!

The Dominion had no base in the AQ, they had what they swiped from the Cardassians and built while they were there. They also had only brough through a small part of their standing fleet as seen when they tried to bring that massive fleet through the wormhole.

Small part, WRONG! For someone talking about someone not watching the show you really are just a sad joke on the world. What they had in the AQ wasn't their whole fleet but that doesn't make it a small part. We know that the GQ being open to the war would mean defeat for the Allies. But never have we heard numbers on the Dominion forces in the GQ. We only know what they were able to build up at the mouth of the wormhole. They would no doubt retain a policing force inside their space to keep everyone inline and protect from anyone looking to take advantage of the AQ war. The size of this force would depend on the size of their territory and the power of anyone they boarder. Again, we still have nothing to base your fictional fractions on.

Care to come out with some evidence or at the least a reason to this theory of yours?

We dont knwo for sure how big Dominion space is but it would stand to reason that it is fairly massive given the size of their fleet and ships.

Again while the two factors often work together they make no evidence one way or the other. Plus, what does this have to do with the two sides beating on each other at the wormhole?

The Dominion with only a fraction of their power could almost beat the alliance, with their full power and far superior shipyards the Allinace dont stand a chance.

Again, what are you using to base this crap of yours on?

a) there is no stations guarding the wormhole

So why did DS9 vanish again?

[Teaos]

Small part, WRONG! For someone talking about someone not watching the show you really are just a sad joke on the world. What they had in the AQ wasn't their whole fleet but that doesn't make it a small part. We know that the GQ being open to the war would mean defeat for the Allies. But never have we heard numbers on the Dominion forces in the GQ. We only know what they were able to build up at the mouth of the wormhole. They would no doubt retain a policing force inside their space to keep everyone inline and protect from anyone looking to take advantage of the AQ war. The size of this force would depend on the size of their territory and the power of anyone they boarder. Again, we still have nothing to base your fictional fractions on.

Care to come out with some evidence or at the least a reason to this theory of yours?

Why only a small part?

The absolute maximum time the Dominion had to start pulling there fleet together is 4 years ruffly. But its likely they didnt start pulling the fleet together in any signifigant numbers until about 2 years before the wat at the earliest.

Now considering Dominion warp tech seems to be on par with Federation warp there speeds are about the same. So over 2 years they could only pull in ships from about a sphere of 2,000 light years, now since the Federation itself is 8,000 light years across I'll hazard a guess that the Dominions space it quite a bit larger than that.

Even at a lower end estimate of 10,000 light years of space across (And it could be far larger than that) they could only muster less than 5% of their standing fleet. So yeah a tiny fraction. Man this is like the third time I've curb stomped you with Math while you just make up random shit.

Again while the two factors often work together they make no evidence one way or the other. Plus, what does this have to do with the two sides beating on each other at the wormhole?

The reason the size of the terriotory matters is that it is a good indicator on the industrial capability. With the Dominions superior size and shipyards they can send through fleet after fleet until they win the war by atrition.

Again, what are you using to base this crap of yours on?

I'm basing it off all that nasty math I did before.

So why did DS9 vanish again?

Because the point of this senario was to pit the alliance against the Dominion in terms of raw fleet power not how good their fortifications are.

[Deepcrush]

But its likely they didnt start pulling the fleet together in any signifigant numbers until about 2 years before the wat at the earliest.

Why would they wait? If you know someone is a threat which they no doubt did then they would have been pulling their forces together from the start. So, while I'll agree that their build up time was 4 years. Your thoughts that for some unknown reason they would wait foulish and go against what we have seen. The Dominion acted quickly to show force against the AQ powers. Just because you didn't see their fleets doesn't mean they aren't already on the move.
The most I could see the Dominion waiting would be a year, at the most! Anything over that just doesn't make sense for how they acted.

Now considering Dominion warp tech seems to be on par with Federation warp there speeds are about the same. So over 2 years they could only pull in ships from about a sphere of 2,000 light years, now since the Federation itself is 8,000 light years across I'll hazard a guess that the Dominions space it quite a bit larger than that.

There happen to be several problems. First is that we don't know the size of the Dominion. The main concern for them is production of K-W. Seeing how the Founders planned for only a single planet's production to last them through the war, you wouldn't need a large number of systems. Another matter is that the UFP's fleet production seems based halfway from Sol. This means you would only need two star systems to build and maintain the SF. Again, we have nothing to base against the Dominion but that would only mean they need three systems worth of production to surpass the SF. The idea you have above works but just not very well. There is too much guessing involved for you to stick so harshly to a stance with little evidence.

Even at a lower end estimate of 10,000 light years of space across (And it could be far larger than that) they could only muster less than 5% of their standing fleet. So yeah a tiny fraction. Man this is like the third time I've curb stomped you with Math while you just make up random s**t.

What the fuck are you talking about... curb stomped and math and making shit up...? You're worthless ass hass been doing all of this bullshit, not me. I already get that you run with as much logic as a dead retard but get a grip.

All the BS numbers come from you...
The mindless tactics come from you...
The thought that a war can only be won and is impossible to lose is from you...
Your make believe size of the Dominion...
Your make believe size of the Dominion fleet...

You talk about random shit while YOU ARE MAKING UP RANDOM SHIT. So go pull chakat's cock out of your ass and get the fuck on topic. I asked you for evidence and for that you make up bullshit that is even less meaningful on this earth then you are.

The reason the size of the terriotory matters is that it is a good indicator on the industrial capability. With the Dominions superior size and shipyards they can send through fleet after fleet until they win the war by atrition.

Evidence...

You may not understand the idea of Attrition but it only works if you're causing harm to your enemy faster then they can replace their losses. Again, this wouldn't be so. Neither side would be able to pass through the wormhole once the other based a large fleet on the other end. You still forget that the allies wont just sit there, THEY WOULD SHOOT BACK!

I'm basing it off all that nasty math I did before.

Nasty is a good word for it. So is shit, puke, crap, chakat and

Because the point of this senario was to pit the alliance against the Dominion in terms of raw fleet power not how good their fortifications are.

Ok, fair enough.

[KuvahMagh]

There happen to be several problems. First is that we don't know the size of the Dominion. The main concern for them is production of K-W. Seeing how the Founders planned for only a single planet's production to last them through the war, you wouldn't need a large number of systems. Another matter is that the UFP's fleet production seems based halfway from Sol. This means you would only need two star systems to build and maintain the SF. Again, we have nothing to base against the Dominion but that would only mean they need three systems worth of production to surpass the SF. The idea you have above works but just not very well. There is too much guessing involved for you to stick so harshly to a stance with little evidence.

Your kidding about only needing 2 Star Systems to maintain Star Fleet right? I mean its not like they gather raw materials/resources from other areas, how foolish would that be. And the idea that the Dominion thus only needs 3 systems to outstrip them... Of course that would be true if the Dominion weren't an overly agressive, paranoid race which has existed over the course of 10,000 years and has never lost a war. The Dominion has not been seen to just sit back and let things happen, they make things happen. They distrust Solids to the point where they go to War to control them yet they keep a small area of Space as their own and are not bigger than the Alliance even though they have not lost a War in 10,000 years.

His theory has more evidence and logic to it in this case than yours. I agree overall that neither side would get very far but your oversimplification of the situation is blatantly false.

[Deepcrush]

DS9, the Founder planned to use a single system to build a fleet able to overpower the allies as a whole.

The UFP uses a single system to house half of their shipyards and produce over half of their fleet.

Third, this is Trek, there for alot won't make sense. Reguardless, strip mining would most likely produce a large amount of useful reasource. Strip mining several whole systems would produce a great deal.

If the Dominion labeled 3 systems to do nothing but produce ships then they would outpace the UFP in ship building.

His theory has more evidence and logic to it in this case than yours.

I'm not running a theory, its a tactical action. I'm so glad you're at least pretending to keep up with things on this...

[Deepcrush]

The Dominion has not been seen to just sit back and let things happen, they make things happen. They distrust Solids to the point where they go to War to control them yet they keep a small area of Space as their own and are not bigger than the Alliance even though they have not lost a War in 10,000 years.

Did you even have a point to this?

[Teaos]

Why would they wait? If you know someone is a threat which they no doubt did then they would have been pulling their forces together from the start. So, while I'll agree that their build up time was 4 years. Your thoughts that for some unknown reason they would wait foulish and go against what we have seen. The Dominion acted quickly to show force against the AQ powers. Just because you didn't see their fleets doesn't mean they aren't already on the move.
The most I could see the Dominion waiting would be a year, at the most! Anything over that just doesn't make sense for how they acted.

They first came across the Alliance 4 years earlier, at that stage they knew absolutly nothing about them, so what would they do, panic and go "OMFG random people in our territory, lets go mobilise our entire fleet NOW!" or would they send some people to investigate and find out (rather like they did with those founders who inflitrated the alliance powers). After some investigation and finding out they are pretty powerful and seem set of colonising the GQ they then proceed to pull their fleet together, lets say... oh 2 years before the war. They would not pull there fleet together the second they found them.

But if, IF, they did it would still only mean they would have 15% of their standing fleet assuming there territory is only 10,000 light years across (Which is a really low estimate)

Your arguement is shit, you have no concept of how long it takes to mobilise a fleet or the circumstances under which it is done.

There happen to be several problems. First is that we don't know the size of the Dominion. The main concern for them is production of K-W. Seeing how the Founders planned for only a single planet's production to last them through the war, you wouldn't need a large number of systems. Another matter is that the UFP's fleet production seems based halfway from Sol. This means you would only need two star systems to build and maintain the SF. Again, we have nothing to base against the Dominion but that would only mean they need three systems worth of production to surpass the SF. The idea you have above works but just not very well. There is too much guessing involved for you to stick so harshly to a stance with little evidence.

The founders are concerned with their safety, they wont to dominate and control every "solid" species around them, they would not be happy to just hold 2 systems.

Your totally right I can't prove anything about the size of the Dominion territory but I think it is at least common sense to give them an area of space as big as the Federation and probably much bigger.

What the f**k are you talking about... curb stomped and math and making s**t up...? You're worthless ass hass been doing all of this bullshit, not me. I already get that you run with as much logic as a dead retard but get a grip.

Making stuff up? No sorry, you see there is this thing that people from civilized area call "math" it is rather handy for proving people wrong.

Let me spell it out for you, try to keep up.

Dominion space 10,000 light years. (Yes yes I know I can't prove it but I find it a very fair number considering Graham puts there space at close to 40,000 ly)

So Dominion space 10,000 ly by 10,000ly = 100,000,000 square light years.

Assuming Dominion warp tech is about the same as Federation (which it seems to be) they can move across 1,000 light years of space in 1 year.

That means over 2 years they can travel 2,000 ly.

So 2,000 x 2,000 = 4,000,000

4,000,000 / 100,000,000 = .04 or 4%

Thats 4% of their standing fleet in 2 years.

Now if I do that same math but use 4 years instead of 2 years since your an idiot we get

4,000 x 4,000 = 16,000,000

16,000,000 / 100,000,000 = 16% of their standing fleet.

And to prove that I am being nice about the estimate of 10,000,000 ly of Dominion space lets use Grahams guess of 40,000 ly.

40,000 x 40,000 = 1,600,000,000

Now even with your retarded guess of 4 years travel time they would only be able to amass 1%!!!!!!! of their fleet.

So yeah. Tiny fraction.

All the BS numbers come from you...

I proved my number rather nicely. If anything I proved I am using low end guesses and it could be much worse.

The mindless tactics come from you...

Sorry mate my tactics are more sound that yours, your assuming they would panic and pull their entire fleet together the second they found the alliance, I'm assuming they would go find out information first, you know, like we saw them do in the show.

The thought that a war can only be won and is impossible to lose is from you...

I think it is possible it might draw for a while but I think just through attrition the Dominion would win. I proved they can bring large fleets through the wormhole thus can deliver huge amounts of damage each time, I proved the Dominion has far great ship numbers, I proved they almost beat the alliance with a tiny fraction of their power.

Your make believe size of the Dominion...

LOL. I'm using a size that is 1/4 the size of other people guesses, most reasonable people accept the size of Dominion space is rather massive. If anything I am being unrealistic because I'm making their space to small.

Honestly I dont think you think Dominion space is small, your just pulling a Chakat, you can't beat my other arguements so you grasp the one thing I cant prove for sure and hold onto it like a screaming toddler.

Your make believe size of the Dominion fleet...

This ties into the math I did and my very reasonable estimate on the size of Dominion space. If you can't follow the math let me know and I'll spell it out for you... I'm that nice.

You may not understand the idea of Attrition but it only works if you're causing harm to your enemy faster then they can replace their losses. Again, this wouldn't be so. Neither side would be able to pass through the wormhole once the other based a large fleet on the other end. You still forget that the allies wont just sit there, THEY WOULD SHOOT BACK!

Reliant and Seafort both showed screen shots showing the Wormhole can deliver very sizeable fleets into the AQ.

Now why exactly would these fleets be crushed so totally as to make victory impossible.

They have shields and weapons the second the get through and can fight as well.

So they come through, start fighting, even if the Alliance could destroy 5 ships for every 1 the Dominion can still replace their loses faster than the alliance and keep the war going for ever, how long can the Alliance keep a fleet sitting on the wormhole before the rest of their territoy suffers?

Nasty is a good word for it. So is s**t, puke, crap, chakat

ammusing, if you cant follow it please let me know, I think I made it very clear.

[Granitehewer]

So Dominion space 10,000 ly by 10,000ly = 100,000,000 square light years.

, erm, space isn't 2D flat, you surely should cube it, so perhaps you're thinking 10,000x10,000x10,000?

[KuvahMagh]

The Dominion has not been seen to just sit back and let things happen, they make things happen. They distrust Solids to the point where they go to War to control them yet they keep a small area of Space as their own and are not bigger than the Alliance even though they have not lost a War in 10,000 years.

Did you even have a point to this?

I'm saying that in 10,000 years with their culture and history for aggression they would be much larger than the Alliance which has not been around for anywhere near that long.

There is also another thing we should consider. The Dominion is a single Government where as the Allaince is 3 seperate Governments trying to work together. They might have the save end goal but we saw in DS9 how the Alliance nearly broke down a few times because of disagreements, if this War drags on, which I believe it would, the Alliance could eventually fall apart.

[mlsnoopy]

Because at the start of this I said that, a) there is no stations guarding the wormhole b) each side has seen this conflict coming for several years and are thus fully mobilised.

O, I thought that it was a realistic scenario set inuniverse, not just a battle who can get more ships through the WH.

[Teaos]

So Dominion space 10,000 ly by 10,000ly = 100,000,000 square light years.

, erm, space isn't 2D flat, you surely should cube it, so perhaps you're thinking 10,000x10,000x10,000?

Yeah but if we assume it is of equel thickness the whole way thickness becomes pointless in this case. Also I'm not sure just how thick the Milkyway is.

[Captain Seafort]

The disc is about 1000 ly thick, as a rule of thumb, but I agree as a comparison of the relative sizes it's not really relevent.

[Granitehewer]

of course it is, the arms of the galaxy are not of uniform thickness at all esp the scutum-crux, carina and orion arms especially in terms of distribution of stars and planets , nor approaching that, and also the colonisation by the alliance or dominion may cover a similar 'length'/'breadth' but not thickness,so if one power had similar boundaries relating to space as represented as a 2D map but expanded more in another vector then it could theoretically encompass far more stars and habitable planets, and since there are between 200billion-400billion stars and a number of m-class worlds which are not homogenously distributed, all three dimensions are highly pertinent.

[Teaos]

But in the senario I was referring to, where we are covering tens of thousands of light years a difference of a few thousand is insignifignat.