Federation Fleet Composition

[Mikey]

11 carriers. There is even talk about decom the Enterprise now to reduce the fleet down to ten until the Ford is ready in 2015.

The Ford? Really? Is it going to be launched, or just fall down the stairs from dry dock?

[Tsukiyumi]

[Deepcrush]

[Vic]

Damn Mike!

[McAvoy]

Maybe alittle of both.

Yes, the new class of carriers will be called the Gerald Ford class.

[Tholian_Avenger]

Fleet 1
Will raid into Enemy Territory and annihilate enemy bases. I assume they all have the DW upgrades.
24 Galaxies
50 Nebulas
5 Akiras

Fleet 2
Will meet any invasion. I am keeping the Akiras home in case a cube drops by.
6 Galaxies
20 Nebulas
65 Akiras

Fleets 3-9
Area garrisons.
3 New Orleans
5 Novas
8 Sabres

Flotillas A, B, C
Electronics Signals Intelligence Warfare and Covert Operations
1 Intrepid
3 Sabres

Logistics
The Federation should be calm enough for the mundane to be handled by an Oberth. With all of these old vessels, SF will need a bunch of spare parts moved around. Anyways, I would intend to spam an enemy with QTorps (or worse) so they will need to be replenished.
30 Large Tenders (Shelley or Springfield)
146 Oberths
30 Novas

All this can probably be left to be run out of the Starbases.

Ambassadors, Excelsiors, Mirandas, Centaurs, and Cheyennes have been retired due to old age or extinction.
The Streamrunners, Norways, and Freedoms are off doing important stuff for the Coast Guard or something.
The Prometheii, Defiants, and Sovereigns must be off hunting Borg so I assume the Intrepids are tagging behind taking pretty pictures and such.
The Experimentals seen at Wolf359 are still dead.

[Deepcrush]

Your first fleet is strong but badly weakens your defense line.

[Tholian_Avenger]

That is what the Flotillas are for. I imagine Section 31 would send them to the "hotspots" and they could give a decent advance warning. The Garrison Fleets could be diverted if in need. Don't you think having Fleet 1 waging war in your territory gives a nice mutually assured destruction feel to any attackers?

SFHQ must not suspect any big local war on the horizon or the superships wouldn't have been removed.

[Deepcrush]

That is what the Flotillas are for.

That wouldn't stop a single Vor'Cha or Dominion Battlecruiser. Let alone an attack squadron.

I imagine Section 31 would send them to the "hotspots" and they could give a decent advance warning.

You imagine wrong. S31 can't be everywhere and predict everything. Besides, its not their job. That would be the job of SF-Intel.

The Garrison Fleets could be diverted if in need.

Could is the key word in that. Could, means your enemy could get past you. Could reach your homeworld and could level it hours before your support arrives.

Don't you think having Fleet 1 waging war in your territory gives a nice mutually assured destruction feel to any attackers?

Give me half a dozen squadrons of Battlecruisers and a few attack wings of Bugs and I'll stalemate that fleet with ramming and flank attacks. In the meantime, one or two or three of my ships just leveled your capital.

SFHQ must not suspect any big local war on the horizon or the superships wouldn't have been removed.

Yeah, that was the same feeling they had just before the Breen showed up.

[Tholian_Avenger]

I was under the impression that Section 31 was Starfleet Intelligence. So that is what I meant.

The Breen: SF was at war and failed miserably to monitor its own territory for attack, to monitor the trade of its declared enemy (the Cardassian area), barely defended its home, and failed to launch a counter strike. What can I say? I may be under utilizing incompetents and may have unfortunate situations but space is big and a 500 ship fleet won't be enough to keep an armada of Dyson Spheres from sneaking through a gap. If SF hasn't learned from mistakes, I can not improve a hopeless organization. For my enemy to have perfect intelligence and me to have none or disinformation is not something I can fix with armaments.

In this timeframe we are left with an alien of the week or an unknown menace. We could just as easily go to the Organians and demand repayment for their poor stewardship in the latter case.

We have seen these SF Captains, they are the most ruthless and immoral brigands this side of Orion, willing to use plagues, chemicals, and base delta zero. So if my Fleet 1 has a chance of luck or secrecy in its counterstrike, the repercussions could be nasty. Further, with all of those Oberths scuttling about the space ways, I have an additional layer of interior detection.

As you know, the attacker always has the advantage, a bomber can always get through. The enemy must either attack my defenses or my planets. If the enemy attacks my defenses he prepares the way for a large invasion but slows his tempo. If the enemy attacks my home he reveals himself and will be faced with my defenses on his return. In either situation a strike package should be ready and deployed to attack his bases or his home.

[Captain Seafort]

I was under the impression that Section 31 was Starfleet Intelligence. So that is what I meant.

S31 might be a covert arm of SF Int, but it's more likely to be completely separate. Either way, it's best RL analogue is the CIA, not military intelligence.

The Breen: SF was at war and failed miserably to monitor its own territory for attack, to monitor the trade of its declared enemy (the Cardassian area), barely defended its home, and failed to launch a counter strike.

Starfleet was caught with it's pants down, but given the situation I'm prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt and put it down to poor decision making rather than outright incompetence. They probably had the fleet covering Earth positioned to intercept Dominion raiders rather than from the direction of Breen space, and there's the further strong possibility that the Breen have cloaking devices. Moreover, given the extremely limited damage inflicted, the Breen's heavy ships were probably intercepted and destroyed before they reached Earth, with only light forces actually attacking.

space is big and a 500 ship fleet won't be enough to keep an armada of Dyson Spheres from sneaking through a gap.

It will, however, be able to cover a large area against attackers. In your system, only your first and second fleets are strong enough to cope with a serious force.

In this timeframe we are left with an alien of the week or an unknown menace. We could just as easily go to the Organians and demand repayment for their poor stewardship in the latter case.

The Organians aren't the Federation's guardians - they're merely the enforcers of the Fed-Klingon peace. Moreover, that doesn't help those killed in an attack.

We have seen these SF Captains, they are the most ruthless and immoral brigands this side of Orion, willing to use plagues, chemicals, and base delta zero. So if my Fleet 1 has a chance of luck or secrecy in its counterstrike, the repercussions could be nasty.

Bullshit. We have seen such tactics used or suggested precisely twice - "A Taste of Armageddon", in the far more militarised TOS-era, and Sisko's attack on the Maquis colony in "For the Uniform", which was conducted off his own bat without Starfleet authority. There has never been any indication of such indiscriminate attacks being sanctioned as a method of war by the Federation, and every indication (given their extreme pacifism) that they would avoid such tactics.

As you know, the attacker always has the advantage

Wrong, by and large the advantage lies with the defender - they have shorter LOC, may be able to operate on interior lines, and have the morale advantage of fighting in defence of their homes. In Trek fleet combat, the side on the defensive has the additional advantage conferred by their "moving wall" formations, which allows much greater supporting fire to a ship on the defending side than the attackers'.

The two biggest problems with your scenario are that 1) you massively underestimate the number of ships available to the Federation by at least an order of magnitude and 2) you concentrate too much on the concept of a single knock-out blow and the defence of your core worlds (assuming thats what the 2nd Fleet is for). You instead need to consider the extension of you fighting forces along the entire line, and to assign considerable reserve forces to the 2nd echelon support of your offensive thrust(s), countering a potential enemy breakthrough at any point along the line, and to escort supply convoys from your industrial base to the front.

[Tholian_Avenger]

There has never been any indication of such indiscriminate attacks being sanctioned as a method of war by the Federation, and every indication (given their extreme pacifism) that they would avoid such tactics.
. . . precisely twice . . .

Agreed. We all go a little crazy now and then, especially when you find out your homeworld was just evaporated.

One of the two general exceptions to the Prime Directive is in cases where an extreme threat to the Federation exists. General Order 24 authorizes a Captain to order the destruction of an entire civilization under certain circumstances. Captain Garth of Izar on Antos IV and Captain James Kirk on Eminiar VII. There is the normal extinction complaint against the Prime Directive. Captain Jean Luc Picard led the USS Enterprise-D (staffed by SF personnel) in developing a slow acting virus to destroy the Collective. IIRC, Admiral Necheyev condemns Picard for not doing this. Michael Eddington (a former SF officer) led the Maquis (composed of former SF personnel) to use cobalt diselinide on Cardassian worlds. Captain Benjamin Sisko (a SF officer) led the USS Defiant (staffed mostly by SF personnel) to use trilithium resin on a Maquis world and intended to carry on his campaign. Section 31 (composed partly of SF personnel) attempted genocide of the Changeling Species by creating a morphogenic virus. Captain Rudoplh Ransom led the USS Equinox (staffed by SF personnel) in a systematic murder of intelligent nucleogenic beings. Captain Kathryn Janeway led the USS Voyager (staffed mostly by actual and acting SF personnel) to improve on Borg assimilation techniques. Admiral Kathryn Janeway infected the Borg Collective with a neurolytic pathogen, destroying the Unicomplex and killing trillions of drones.

1) you massively underestimate the number of ships available to the Federation by at least an order of magnitude and 2) you concentrate too much on the concept of a single knock-out blow and the defence of your core worlds (assuming thats what the 2nd Fleet is for).

DS9 leaves no room for underestimation with it's fleet actions. Fleet 2 is a general reserve to respond to where needed. Against the large powers I envision a savage mauling on their midrange bases to allow the war footing to begin in earnest.

I accounted for underway replenishment for these junkers within the 500 ship cap. Minding the 500 ship cap, how many logistics ships should I include? If I remember correctly Akiras and Galaxies can spam Torps and Novas quickly run low on Antimatter. I concentrate on the offense because to attempt to fortify all the worlds, the supply lines, and maintain a shell of ships with reserves is expensive and impossible with the cap.

The Organians aren't...

You don't like my act of plot.

[BigJKU316]

I think you mis-understand the scenario. The 500 ships was the upper limit for putting together a force to handle combat situations for the Federation, not secure the whole of the Federation.

It is presumed you would have forces on the borders and other forces around the Federation. This force would be placed astride a likely route of incursion for enemy forces, such as in the general area between the Romulan Border and the core worlds of the Federation and would react to any incursion.

[Tholian_Avenger]

Well that makes things a lot easier.

[Captain Seafort]

One of the two general exceptions to the Prime Directive is in cases where an extreme threat to the Federation exists. General Order 24 authorizes a Captain to order the destruction of an entire civilization under certain circumstances. Captain Garth of Izar on Antos IV and Captain James Kirk on Eminiar VII.

In the far more militarised TOS=era Federation, not the TNG-era Federation.

There is the normal extinction complaint against the Prime Directive.

Genocide through omission, not by direct action

Captain Jean Luc Picard led the USS Enterprise-D (staffed by SF personnel) in developing a slow acting virus to destroy the Collective. IIRC, Admiral Necheyev condemns Picard for not doing this.

Admiral Kathryn Janeway infected the Borg Collective with a neurolytic pathogen, destroying the Unicomplex and killing trillions of drones.

Targeted attacks against the command and control systems of a specific, known threat to the Federation, not an indiscriminate one.

Captain Kathryn Janeway led the USS Voyager (staffed mostly by actual and acting SF personnel) to improve on Borg assimilation techniques.

When?

Michael Eddington (a former SF officer) led the Maquis (composed of former SF personnel) to use cobalt diselinide on Cardassian worlds.

The prior allegiance of that bunch or terrorists is irrelevant.

Captain Benjamin Sisko (a SF officer) led the USS Defiant (staffed mostly by SF personnel) to use trilithium resin on a Maquis world and intended to carry on his campaign.

An attack Sisko made no attempt to clear with SF Command

Section 31 (composed partly of SF personnel) attempted genocide of the Changeling Species by creating a morphogenic virus.

Like the Borg, this was a targeted attack, not an indiscriminate one, and the Founders could be considered as much a single life form as independent ones.

Captain Rudoplh Ransom led the USS Equinox (staffed by SF personnel) in a systematic murder of intelligent nucleogenic beings.

And Janeway went after him for his crimes. Using this and Sisko's actions to support a theory that the Federation uses genocide as a standard tactic in war are the equivalent of using My Lai as proof that the annihilation of the Vietnamese population was SOP for the US Army in SE Asia.

DS9 leaves no room for underestimation with it's fleet actions.

Then why do you claim the Feds only have hundreds of ships, rather than thousands or possibly low tens of thousands?

Fleet 2 is a general reserve to respond to where needed. Against the large powers I envision a savage mauling on their midrange bases to allow the war footing to begin in earnest.

Whereupon you leave the core of the Federation wide open to attack.

The Organians aren't...

You don't like my act of plot.

I don't like your complete ignorance of strategy and Star Trek.