Telepathy and legal rights in Trek

[Mark]

Wouldn't that whole thing fall apart the moment someone tried reading someone else's mind with one of those things on? Not exactly a great sollution to depend on a deception that could collapse at any moment.

I don't think so. I once heard a story about an elephant at a circus that had a huge chain tied around it's foot so it couldn't get away. As it got bigger and older, they eventually reduced the chain to a length of rope, that the elephant could have easily broken. But since it came to believe that it couldn't break it since it was small, it never even tried.

Point being, before you can do something, you have to believe that you can. If you believe that something is impossible and cannot be done, (even if it really can) then your right.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Wouldn't that whole thing fall apart the moment someone tried reading someone else's mind with one of those things on? Not exactly a great sollution to depend on a deception that could collapse at any moment.

Well, they're raised to believe that the headbands work, so even if they try their subconscious is thinking it won't work so it doesn't work. At least that's the idea, I think. But there are those that know the secret that still use the headbands, to help them mentally turn off their telepathy. Some who don't even where the headband still make the motions of taking it on or off to turn their abilities on and off. There's also a large amount of training as they grow into their abilities, so that it's not as big of a problem.

Point being, before you can do something, you have to believe that you can. If you believe that something is impossible and cannot be done, (even if it really can) then your right

Exactly

[Captain Seafort]

All that would need to happen in this case would be some individual to mind-read someone through one of these supposedly telepathy-proof walls without realising that said wall had this stuff in it. The whole house of cards would promptly collapse.

[Mark]

Wouldn't that whole thing fall apart the moment someone tried reading someone else's mind with one of those things on? Not exactly a great sollution to depend on a deception that could collapse at any moment.

Well, they're raised to believe that the headbands work, so even if they try their subconscious is thinking it won't work so it doesn't work. At least that's the idea, I think. But there are those that know the secret that still use the headbands, to help them mentally turn off their telepathy. Some who don't even where the headband still make the motions of taking it on or off to turn their abilities on and off. There's also a large amount of training as they grow into their abilities, so that it's not as big of a problem.

Point being, before you can do something, you have to believe that you can. If you believe that something is impossible and cannot be done, (even if it really can) then your right

Exactly

Don't I win any cookies now???

[Blackstar the Chakat]

All that would need to happen in this case would be some individual to mind-read someone through one of these supposedly telepathy-proof walls without realising that said wall had this stuff in it. The whole house of cards would promptly collapse.

Only if hy found out that hy read through a telepathy-proof wall. Even then hy'd probably think it a freak accident or go to a professional about it and get the training necessary to deal with it, if any is even required.

[Sionnach Glic]

I don't think so. I once heard a story about an elephant at a circus that had a huge chain tied around it's foot so it couldn't get away. As it got bigger and older, they eventually reduced the chain to a length of rope, that the elephant could have easily broken. But since it came to believe that it couldn't break it since it was small, it never even tried.

Point being, before you can do something, you have to believe that you can. If you believe that something is impossible and cannot be done, (even if it really can) then your right.

That's not really a great analogy. For one, we're dealing with sapient beings here, not animals that are trained not to struggle against their environment. Moreover, the elephant at one point wasn't able to break out. In this case you're trusting no one to ever try to get past these things at all.

Put it this way: if you were always told that your parents were watching you all the time as a kid and that they'd isntantly know the moment you did something wrong, do you think you'd live with that thought for long? No, because all it takes is one instance where you get away with something for that whole illusion to come crashing down.

Same with this thing. All it takes is for one person to try mind-reading, or for someone who doesn't know what the headset is to try mind-reading, for that whole system to fall apart.

[Captain Seafort]

Well, they're raised to believe that the headbands work, so even if they try their subconscious is thinking it won't work so it doesn't work. At least that's the idea, I think.

I can only see that working if their telepathic abilities only develop later in life (say, around puberty). Otherwise you'd have the problem that small children don't tend to understand the word "can't" - they'd use their telpathic abilities even while wearing the headband because they simply wouldn't grasp the idea that they're not meant to be able to.

[Sionnach Glic]

Well, they're raised to believe that the headbands work, so even if they try their subconscious is thinking it won't work so it doesn't work.

And I was raised to believe that there is a god out there. People test their environments. It's a natural part of growing up.

Let me give you an example. Let's say you raised a child to believe that if you put a special necklace on him, he won't be able to talk. Now, when you do put this necklace on him, do you really think he'll just think "Oh, well, I can't talk now so I'm not going to bother trying"? No, he won't. He'll start blabbing immediately.
Since there's no real way to prevent telepathy, there's no way to train them in it other than telling them repeatedly that it works. When the time comes to test it out for real, they'll test to see if it works. Then the illusion falls apart.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Same with this thing. All it takes is for one person to try mind-reading, or for someone who doesn't know what the headset is to try mind-reading, for that whole system to fall apart.

Except that if the wearer still believes in the headband their mind couldn't be read, the whole mental thing, again.

It's sort of like that Bugs Bunny cartoon where the guy walks right off the edge of the cliff but doesn't fall because he hasn't learned about gravity. Then he reads about gravity and falls. Now obviously we aren't breaking laws of physics so this actually works in the case of the headbands.

I can only see that working if their telepathic abilities only develop later in life (say, around puberty).

In the Chakat-universe most grow into their abilities(although there have been incidents where they have developed it for one reason or another early on creating issues). But in other universes where species don't grow into it, it could be a problem like you suggested.

[Sionnach Glic]

Except that if the wearer still believes in the headband their mind couldn't be read, the whole mental thing, again.

How? If I put on a necklace and believe that it will stop me from talking, will I suddenly be unable to speak if I try? No, obviously not. All it takes is for one person to try it. Chakats number how many? Billions? More? Are you seriously suggesting that not one member of this race ever tried to test their headset?

It's sort of like that Bugs Bunny cartoon where the guy walks right off the edge of the cliff but doesn't fall because he hasn't learned about gravity. Then he reads about gravity and falls. Now obviously we aren't breaking laws of physics so this actually works in the case of the headbands.

That is in no way analogous.

In the Chakat-universe most grow into their abilities(although there have been incidents where they have developed it for one reason or another early on creating issues).

But then we're back to my earlier point:

Let me give you an example. Let's say you raised a child to believe that if you put a special necklace on him, he won't be able to talk. Now, when you do put this necklace on him, do you really think he'll just think "Oh, well, I can't talk now so I'm not going to bother trying"? No, he won't. He'll start blabbing immediately.
Since there's no real way to prevent telepathy, there's no way to train them in it other than telling them repeatedly that it works. When the time comes to test it out for real, they'll test to see if it works. Then the illusion falls apart.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

How? If I put on a necklace and believe that it will stop me from talking, will I suddenly be unable to speak if I try? No, obviously not. All it takes is for one person to try it. Chakats number how many? Billions? More? Are you seriously suggesting that not one member of this race ever tried to test their headset?

That's a physical ability and thus harder to make you belive not a mental one. And no, I'm not suggesting not one member of the Chakat-kin(they're actually the Chakat's brother species, also known as Skunktaurs and yes they do look like taur-form skunks, yes they have 'stink' gland things, no it's not under the tail.) hasn't tried to test their headbands. Several have tried, and many fail due to their training, and those that are sucessful in breaking their mental blocks often see a therapist about it and recieve additional training to handle the resulting issues.

Since there's no real way to prevent telepathy, there's no way to train them in it other than telling them repeatedly that it works. When the time comes to test it out for real, they'll test to see if it works. Then the illusion falls apart

Only if it doesn't work.

[Sionnach Glic]

That's a physical ability and thus harder to make you belive not a mental one. And no, I'm not suggesting not one member of the Chakat-kin(they're actually the Chakat's brother species, also known as Skunktaurs and yes they do look like taur-form skunks, yes they have 'stink' gland things, no it's not under the tail.) hasn't tried to test their headbands. Several have tried, and many fail due to their training, and those that are sucessful in breaking their mental blocks often see a therapist about it and recieve additional training to handle the resulting issues.

In terms of psychology that makes precisely zero sense.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

That's a physical ability and thus harder to make you belive not a mental one. And no, I'm not suggesting not one member of the Chakat-kin(they're actually the Chakat's brother species, also known as Skunktaurs and yes they do look like taur-form skunks, yes they have 'stink' gland things, no it's not under the tail.) hasn't tried to test their headbands. Several have tried, and many fail due to their training, and those that are sucessful in breaking their mental blocks often see a therapist about it and recieve additional training to handle the resulting issues.

In terms of psychology that makes precisely zero sense.

That's probably because we have no real telepaths to explain it.

[Sionnach Glic]

No, it's because people don't work like that.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

No, it's because people don't work like that.

Correction, Humans don't work like that.