If the EU was to become one nation.

[Mikey]

These attitudes began when the Angles displace the Picts, if not earlier. Actual nationalities in Europe began hating each other on the continent when (if not earlier) the Franks displaced the Gauls and set up dynasties which were stronger and more centralized than the other Gothic tribes. We're talking about rivalries that began in the eight and ninth centuries!

[Sionnach Glic]

Exactly. When you've been hating these people for over a millenia, it kinda comes naturaly.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Exactly. When you've been hating these people for over a millenia, it kinda comes naturaly.

But were you personally alive when any of this happened? Unless the answer is yes, I don't see why you would want to fight. I personally hate hating and fighting people. I can't even stay mad at some people(I'm sure they know who they are) even when they are arguing for something I morally disagree with.

[Captain Seafort]

These attitudes began when the Angles displace the Picts, if not earlier. Actual nationalities in Europe began hating each other on the continent when (if not earlier) the Franks displaced the Gauls and set up dynasties which were stronger and more centralized than the other Gothic tribes. We're talking about rivalries that began in the eight and ninth centuries!

Those are some of the more recent examples - the Greeks and Macedonians have been feuding on and off since around 338 BC. The Greeks and the Turks have been at it since Marathon (490 BC).

[Captain Seafort]

But were you personally alive when any of this happened? Unless the answer is yes, I don't see why you would want to fight. I personally hate hating and fighting people. I can't even stay mad at some people(I'm sure they know who they are) even when they are arguing for something I morally disagree with.

Bully for you. Humanity as a whole has a track record of holding grudges, particularly when their tribal group is perceived to be threatened. It's a survival mechanism - if groups weren't prepared to fight to preserve their community, said community would be wiped out in short order. Since humans have an in-built reticence about killing other humans at an individual level, developing the required aggression against their neighbours to fight them requires dehumanising them to an extent. Centuries later the original threat is gone, but the dehumanisation of the rival group remains, passed on down the generations.

[Graham Kennedy]

It's perfectly understandable that whole peoples can hate one another with a passion for purely historical reasons that aren't even remembered today. And yeah, it's unlikely that they will just let it go.

But it can be done. The IRA stopped killing people, after all. And yeah, they were basically defeated by us Brits rather than coming around of their own good graces. And they aren't exactly brimming over with love for one another there right now. But they did stop, and they are living alongside one another. It wouldn't surprise me if the hatreds started to die out over the next century or so.

[Aaron]

It's perfectly understandable that whole peoples can hate one another with a passion for purely historical reasons that aren't even remembered today. And yeah, it's unlikely that they will just let it go.

But it can be done. The IRA stopped killing people, after all. And yeah, they were basically defeated by us Brits rather than coming around of their own good graces. And they aren't exactly brimming over with love for one another there right now. But they did stop, and they are living alongside one another. It wouldn't surprise me if the hatreds started to die out over the next century or so.

Perhaps, or it could turn into a Cyprus clone.

[Mikey]

The point I was trying to make with all that has nothing to do with a value judgement on whether ethnic hatred is good or bad. The point was in trying to illuminate fellow Americans who understandably have a hard time ideating how long-standing and deep-rooted those cultural divisions are in Europe.

Many Americans fail to understand two things - how incredibly young the USA is, especially given the worldwide power it wields; and how nation-building was in all other circumstances a matter of cultural/ethnic groups... and subsequently how wars came to be started when political divisions were enforced which ignored those cultural boundaries.

[shran]

Replying to Rochey's post containing some questions, The Dutch-Portugal war is one that is frgotten. Only like 100 people still know we are at war, simply because it all ended so bloddy long ago.

As to where I live, that would be Groningen, The Netherlands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groningen_%28province%29

UNderstandably, thre eastern half is whining about independency most of all, but they would not urvive, simply because the economy is as bad as it can get in our country.

And hatred between nations also exist in my coutry, Chakatblackstar. 'We' still hate the Germans, becuse of WW II. Soccer championships are always an excellent example of that grudge. We just hate because everyone else does. Group pressure and group psychology go deeer into that.

[Captain Seafort]

Chakatblackstar. 'We' still hate the Germans, becuse of WW II. Soccer championships are always an excellent example of that grudge. We just hate because everyone else does. Group pressure and group psychology go deeer into that.

Footballing allegiance is a good example in itself of the exact phenomenon I was describing earlier, not just as an outlet for national rivalries or hatred. Walk through the wrong bit of Glasgow, for example, wearing a Celtic or Rangers shirt and you're likely to get your head kicked in.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Chakatblackstar. 'We' still hate the Germans, becuse of WW II. Soccer championships are always an excellent example of that grudge. We just hate because everyone else does. Group pressure and group psychology go deeer into that.

Footballing allegiance is a good example in itself of the exact phenomenon I was describing earlier, not just as an outlet for national rivalries or hatred. Walk through the wrong bit of Glasgow, for example, wearing a Celtic or Rangers shirt and you're likely to get your head kicked in.

Oh, Like saying you support the Yankees when you're in Boston?

[Mikey]

I once went to a NY (American football) Giants game at the Philadelphia Eagles, wearing full Giants regalia, and was involved in altercations like that. Heck, the Eagles stadium has a courtroom in it, just because the volume of incidents makes it logical to save effort in not having to transport offenders off-site.

[Captain Seafort]

Oh, Like saying you support the Yankees when you're in Boston?

Something like that. Or wearing a "Hillary for President" T-shirt in a stereotypical small Alabama town.

[Sionnach Glic]

Shran, thanks for the info.

Mikey, wouldn't wearing a "Obama for president" shirt get similar results from the epicentre of the Bible Belt?

[Mikey]

Shran, thanks for the info.

Mikey, wouldn't wearing a "Obama for president" shirt get similar results from the epicentre of the Bible Belt?

Something like that. Although, I have to point out to Blackstar that as a suburban New York dweller who knows, the animosity of BoSox fans towards Yankees fans doesn't even scratch the surface of the vitriol involved in soccer rivalries in the UK and on the continent.

And back to Rochey's and Seafort's points about our candidates - Hillary is often considered a carpetbagger in the South, but she is married to the former governor (and native) of Arkansas. There are parts of the Bible Belt - especially the areas high in AME, Pentecostal, etc., churches - that regard Obama as an inspired preacher. But taken as a whole, these points only further illustrate the youth and causality of the ethnic divisions in the US compared with Europe. If Hill-dog is considered a carpetbagger, that bias can be linked to an event 140 years ago - the American Civil War and Reconstruction, or - as the Southerners say - "the recent unpleasantness." Similarly, upper-middle-white resentment of Obama can be traced to emancipation, or even to 19th century immigration biases. If nobody's figured it out yet, this country cannot have any causal event more than230 years old! In contrast, in Europe we're talking about tribal or clan survival struggles dating back 1300 to 1600 years.