What If Vader Had Survived?

[stitch626]

Anakin may have been 'intoxicated' by the Dark Side, but those were all things that he was capable of doing.

Hmm, so if a soldier of the Iraq war happens to be hipnotized and then kills non-combatant Arabs, he's at fault?

Anikan has fought (and killed) most of his life. That already gives him the abitily to kill.

[Tyyr]

If he gets hopped up on crystal meth before doing it, yes.

[stitch626]

If he gets hopped up on crystal meth before doing it, yes.

It isnt that simple. The dark side of the force is not something you must take in for it to negatively affect you. There are those who activily fight it, and lose. It practically consumes them, like a drug dispursed into the air. A person can only hold their breath for a limited time.

[Tyyr]

And this is supported where?

Seriously, going by your reasoning no one in the Star Wars universe can be held accountable for the things they do because they can just cry, "The Darkside made me do it!"

[Sionnach Glic]

I consider the Dark Side to be a bit like alcohol.
In moderation, it is rarely harmful. Indeed, in some cases it may even be beneficial. It's when people begin to delve too deeply into the Dark Side that the trouble begins. Like alcohol, it can be highly addictive once a Force user gets his first taste of it. And like alcohol, it can lead to a Jedi losing his sense of restraint and his sense of good and wrong. It can lead to him doing things that he'd normally never even consider as being a real option. The more a Jedi uses it, the harder it becomes to stop. And the more he uses it the worse its effects on him and his perception becomes.

Concerning Anakin, I do indeed find him responsible for his actions while in the persona of Vader.

Consider this scenario. A drunken alcoholic murders his boss who had just fired him. Do you let him off because he was drunk? Do you let him off because he is addicted to a substance which fucks with his sense of right and wrong? No. You throw him in jail. Because while it was the alcohol that removed his inhibitions to murder, it was the man himself that decided the best course of action was murder and it was the man himself who did the act.

As Vader, Anakin was "drunk" on the effects of the Dark Side. As he drew more and more on the Dark Side, he lost his sense of morality. To him, anything was justifiable as long as it preserved the order that the Empire had brought to the galaxy. He didn't believe he was doing wrong, as his inhibitions and morality had been forced out of him. From the muder of innocent children to the destruction of entire worlds, as long as it maintained order it was acceptable.

Vader was not an embodiment of the Dark Side. Nor was he a puppet to it. He made those decisions of his own free will. His judgement was clouded heavily by the Dark Side, but the decision was still his to make. Thus the ultimate responsibility lies with Anakin. Anakin saying "It wasn't my fault, the Dark Side made me do it" to the Rebels is the same as pointing to a bottle of whiskey and saying "It wasn't my fault, the drink made me do it" while holding a bloody knife.

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

You must choose the Dark Side, though. It's not hypnosis. It's corruption, it's evil... but it's still you. You are responsible for choosing the path of damnation.

[Sionnach Glic]

Aye, that's what I was getting at. It's you who chooses to do it in the first place.

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

Sorry, Sionnach. Was commenting on Stitch's post.

[stitch626]

You don't always chose it. Sometimes, you just give up fighting it. You can only fight something for so long before it breaks through your defenses. And being in battle constantly kept Anakin closer to the dark side than he normally would have been (though didn't help having Palps around).

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

You don't always chose it. Sometimes, you just give up fighting it. You can only fight something for so long before it breaks through your defenses. And being in battle constantly kept Anakin closer to the dark side than he normally would have been (though didn't help having Palps around).

And that's when you choose it.

[stitch626]

You don't always chose it. Sometimes, you just give up fighting it. You can only fight something for so long before it breaks through your defenses. And being in battle constantly kept Anakin closer to the dark side than he normally would have been (though didn't help having Palps around).

And that's when you choose it.

There is a point when a person simply cannot go on fighting. At that point it is no longer a choice because the person would not be in the right state of mind to choose.

Some do choose it, and willingly. Some choose it, but with coercion. Some have it forced upon them until they break. And others fight long enough to get away.

[Vic]

If one is forced into a Dark Side action that does not make them Dark Siders. When the coercion is gone you can go on to acting like you did before that coercion. The movies at least seem to say that one must willingly embrace the Dark Side.

It is not an infection, it is a choice to do something horrific. By repeating those choices one is drawn into the Dark Side way of thinking and acting. Being Dark Side seems to include no feeling of guilt. If one feels revulsion at what they have been forced to do they are not Dark Side.

[Sionnach Glic]

You don't always chose it. Sometimes, you just give up fighting it. You can only fight something for so long before it breaks through your defenses. And being in battle constantly kept Anakin closer to the dark side than he normally would have been (though didn't help having Palps around).

And how does this show that he is not responsible for his actions? As I pointed out in my previous post, Anakin was neither possessed by nor an embodiment of the Dark Side.
It was Anakin who chose to slaughter a tribe of Tusken Raiders to avenge his mother.
It was Anakin who chose to attack Windu to save Palpatine.
It was Anakin who pledged aliegence to Palpatine to try to save his wife.
It was Anakin who participated in the purge of the Jedi.
It was Anakin who slaughtered those children.
It was Anakin, under a different name, who continued doing evil acts in the hope of preserving the order that the Empire had brought to the galaxy.

At no point was he forced by the Dark Side to do anything. He chose to do it all himself. The Dark Side's only role in his life was that it removed his sense of morals to the point where the end justified the means.

[stitch626]

If one is forced into a Dark Side action that does not make them Dark Siders. When the coercion is gone you can go on to acting like you did before that coercion. The movies at least seem to say that one must willingly embrace the Dark Side.

It is not an infection, it is a choice to do something horrific. By repeating those choices one is drawn into the Dark Side way of thinking and acting. Being Dark Side seems to include no feeling of guilt. If one feels revulsion at what they have been forced to do they are not Dark Side.

Movies, perhaps, but outside of that, there are several examples of individuals you while fighting the dark side eventually just couldn't fight it any longer.

It was Anakin who chose to slaughter a tribe of Tusken Raiders to avenge his mother.

Under our current legal system, he would be considered to have been under duress and would be declared not competent at the time of the crime. As in, not responsible.

It was Anakin who chose to attack Windu to save Palpatine.

And for all we know, Palps coerced him (through the force, not with words). It was clear that the decision was difficult for him.

It was Anakin who pledged aliegence to Palpatine to try to save his wife.

At that point he was broken. And he was right next to Palps. He already had lost to the dark side and was desperate to save his wife.

t was Anakin who participated in the purge of the Jedi.
It was Anakin who slaughtered those children.
It was Anakin, under a different name, who continued doing evil acts in the hope of preserving the order that the Empire had brought to the galaxy.

All under dark side influence. As for "in the hope of preserving the order that the Empire had brought to the galaxy." No, he did that under Palpatine's orders because by this point he had no will to do otherwise. He was as broken as a man who lost his mind. At this point, he was not only under the effects of the dark side, but after losing his wife by his own hand, he completely lost the will to do anything other than follow orders.


If the dark side is entirely choice, how can one be a slave to it?

[Sionnach Glic]

The problem, Stitch, is that you're working under the assumption that once you're "lost" to the Dark Side, it will start to control you. That's clearly not the case. Being "lost" to the Dark Side is much the same as being an alcoholic. It's addictive to you, it fucks with your perception of the world, and it can be nigh on impossible to give up, depending on how far down that path you've gone. But the Dark Side doesn't control you any more than alcohol controls you.

Let me pose you this hypothetical question. Let's say an alcoholic man goes out, gets drunk, and gets in his car to drive home. On the way home he hits and kills a man crossing the road.
Now, at the court do you think the judge will say "well, he was an alcoholic so he's not responsible for his actions", or will he say "Jail. Now."?

Under our current legal system, he would be considered to have been under duress and would be declared not competent at the time of the crime. As in, not responsible.

Eh? So if a man flies into a rage and kills a few dozen people, he's not held accountable? I dunno how things are done in the US, but in Europe said man would find himself in shit quite quickly.

And for all we know, Palps coerced him (through the force, not with words). It was clear that the decision was difficult for him.

There's nothing to suggest that Palpatine was doing anything to him but making him believe that his wife was going to die.

And yes, the decision was tough for him. I'm sure if you had to choose between the woman you love or treason you'd find it a hard choice too.

At that point he was broken.

So? He had just committed treason and was directly responsible for the death of a Jedi Master. I think most people would be saying "What have I done?" in much the same manner. That doesn't stop them being responsible for their acts.

And he was right next to Palps.

And?

He already had lost to the dark side and was desperate to save his wife.

Yes, he was. And he chose to side with the man who he believed could help him. Desperation does not absolve one of their crimes, however.

All under dark side influence.

Was the Dark Side controlling him? Was it making him do these things? Nope.

As for "in the hope of preserving the order that the Empire had brought to the galaxy." No, he did that under Palpatine's orders because by this point he had no will to do otherwise.

Anakin was always in favour of a strong government. I believe some of the books detail this further. The Empire was the sort of state he wanted in power, just without the mass murder.

If the dark side is entirely choice, how can one be a slave to it?

If Anakin was being controlled by the Dark Side, how did he rebel against it?

The Dark Side is a choice in the same way picking up a bottle of vodka is a choice. For those who become addicted to it, it becomes harder and harder to put the bottle down, but the issue still remains one of choice.