Traviss quits.

[Deepcrush]

Like with anything in life. She's an example of someone fucking up but being to pathetic to own up to their fuckups. FURBALL! YOU GETTING THIS!

[Monroe]

This is great news. Would be even better if she had been fired.

[Tsukiyumi]

This is great news. Would be even better if she had been fired.

Or hit by a bus.





Would that be "author-bashing"?

[Tyyr]

I just find it amusing that she plays fast and loose with canon, twisting things to suit her and then she quits... when someone twists canon back around. Talk about being able to dish it out but not take it.

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

I just find it amusing that she plays fast and loose with canon, twisting things to suit her and then she quits... when someone twists canon back around. Talk about being able to dish it out but not take it.

Typical schoolyard bully behavior. Not surprising to me.

[Tyyr]

I think you're attributing malevolence to a situation where stupidity works just fine as an explanation.

[SuperSaiyaMan12]

Midnight's rebuttle:

Quote from: SuperSaiyaMan123 on August 09, 2009, 07:16:47 pm
When they joined the Sith. When they invaded the Republic for the sole reason for a fight. What's so honorable about burning a planet just for the sake of it (Seracco)?

They have a code of honor that they follow. It's not like you have to understand it or believe in it for it to exist. Hell, those radical Muslim terrorists probably have a code of honor amongst themselves that only they understand, and they go around blowing up buildings with planes & car bombs, and strap explosives to children.

Quote
And need I remind you, the Mandalorians sided with the fricking YUUZHAN VONG for the first half of the war that killed 365 Trillion people.

So, it's probably around the number of casualties of the Mandalorian War right before KOTOR 1, then.

Quote
Except-it wasn't. In all other Clone Wars media, the Jedi were shown as heroes. Only in Traviss's novels they were turned into Snidley Whiplash.

And in pretty much all other Clone Wars media, we've only seen the Jedi around clones, Battle Droids, CIS opponents, Dooku, Republic officers, Republic Senators, and rescued civilians. And even with those I'm sure that some of those people mistrusted the Jedi. When the Jedi rescued the Twi'Leks on Ryloth, there were some civilians who questioned the Jedi about trading one group of slavers(the CIS) for another(the Republic). When Anakin, Aayla & Ashoka crashed on that one planet with the fuzzy aliens who curled up into rolling balls, they didn't even want the Jedi there because even though Jedi are supposed to be peacekeepers, they fight & bring battle to people that want nothing to do with it.

Not everyone loves Jedi. And none of that has to do with Traviss' writing.

Quote
The wrong part is that Boba Fett is not even Traviss's Mandalorian Ideal.

So, you're only happy if Boba stays in his badass "capturing Han Solo" mode, despite the fact that that was close to 40 years ago? The character can't grow & want something more than cold hard credits?

And you're right, Traviss didn't write Fett as the ultimate Mandalorian. He was shown to struggle with his responsibilities and his human emotions of attachment...as a good writer should do.

Quote
I know she's not. The problem is, she writes them able to kill Jedi so easily, it becomes like the treatment Kishimoto gave to Uchiha Sasuke.

Jedi aren't invincible, you know. Many have fallen to trained warriors with absolutely no Force abilities. They were being slaughtered by the Vong. Grevious was beating them both in one-on-one and in small groups. Jango could & did take some out(hell, poor Coleman Trebor never stood a chance in AOTC). And the Mandalorians caused heavy casualties during the Mandalorian War, which combined with the Jedi that went over to Revan's side almost wiped out the Order.

Quote
We must have read different books. Because I remember Mara Jade going after Jacen *alone* despite promising Luke that they'd go after the Sith together. As well as the fact that nearly all her character developement was thrown out the window for a reversion back to Palpatine's Assassin.

Which was explained in the book. She didn't just pop up in one scene as mommy & then appeared the next as the remorseless Emperor's Hand. She knew that Luke might not be able to make that hard choice of killing his nephew, even after what he did to Anakin(and gee, what a surprise, she was right because he DID struggle with it). She knew that she could do it, due to what she did in the past. And Mara knew that even though she had moved past that mindset by that point in her life, she had to take back on those traits in order to accomplish what needed to be done.

Quote
That's pretty bad logic. Its not the parents fault that the Solo kids were kidnapped so many times. That's like saying it was the victim's fault they were murdered.

So, with all the advanced tech of the SWU, you actually mean to tell me that after the first time the kids were kidnapped, you actually feel that "Hey, let's just move the kids to a remote world, with only Chewie & sometimes Winter there to watch them. No need for any high tech gear to protect them, and no need to retire from active duty to raise them ourselves" is a solid plan?

Quote
Because three million clones isn't even enough to fight for a SINGLE planet in the galaxy, much less millions of planets. Hell, for Anakin Skywalker's Open Circle Fleet, there would have to be 47 million clones commanding each and every ship in it.

It's not like Anakin's fleet had nothing but clones serving in it. There were quite a few Republic officers & other men in it. Not to mention that the clones weren't commanding any ships. They were there to fight only. Who cares about any hard number of available clone troopers, just know that they are there & available.

Quote
Its not just she's pro-Mandalorian-its that she devotes time and energy to them in books where they should only be either mentioned, or acting as supporting characters.

Granted, she didn't have to devote as much page space to Mandos as she did in LotF, but I don't mind that as much as I do Jacen going completely stupid once Lumiya died or the WTFOMGBBQ?!? decision of making Daala the fucking head of the Republic.

Quote
The other authors of LOTF got tired of her devoting several Mandalorian chapters to a Galaxy spanning war while ignoring it. They were also tired of her treatment of Jedi. On what she does to Mandos, its what Kishimoto does for his Spotlight Stealing Squad, Uchiha Sasuke and Team Hawk. They have to be represented, but there are different ways to present them. Recall, Hapes didn't need as much attention that the Mandos have gotten from her to be fleshed out.

Yeah, and think of what we know of Hapans in general. Vain as fuck, ruled by women, and the nobels constantly play cutthroat politics & won't hesitate to backstab someone to advance in station. We know little to nothing about the average citizen, or the culture if it isn't attached to a nobel.

And in a round & about way, Traviss is right. Why does it always have to be about Jedis? Yeah, most of the main cast are Jedis, due to being Solos & Skywalkers, but is that all Star Wars has to offer anymore? You barely hear shit about Lando anymore, him getting a mention maybe twice a series if that post NJO. Where the fuck is Wraith Squadron, and why can't we get any more books about them, especially considering that they were a combo of Rogue Squadron & the Dirty Dozen? What, there's no more stories to be told that require the heroes' hands to get dirty?

Death Star and Millenium Falcon were a godsend, but surely not every story needs to be a multi-book "fate of the galaxy is at stake & only the Jedi can save us" epic, does it? Look, I love the Jedi as much as the next guy, but why can't fans of SW also revel in the explots of Lt. Kettch, feared TIE pilot anymore?

[Captain Seafort]

They have a code of honor that they follow. It's not like you have to understand it or believe in it for it to exist. Hell, those radical Muslim terrorists probably have a code of honor amongst themselves that only they understand, and they go around blowing up buildings with planes & car bombs, and strap explosives to children.

Talk about moving the goalposts. You pointed out that they were a bunch of immoral bastards, he disputed this, and now he's trying to focus on the fact that they had a code of honour. This changes nothing about the morality (or rather, the lack thereof) of their actions.

So, it's probably around the number of casualties of the Mandalorian War right before KOTOR 1, then.

I fail to see the point of this statement - the fact that they were responsible for a war as bad as the Vong war doesn't help their case.

And in pretty much all other Clone Wars media, we've only seen the Jedi around clones, Battle Droids, CIS opponents, Dooku, Republic officers, Republic Senators, and rescued civilians. And even with those I'm sure that some of those people mistrusted the Jedi. When the Jedi rescued the Twi'Leks on Ryloth, there were some civilians who questioned the Jedi about trading one group of slavers(the CIS) for another(the Republic). When Anakin, Aayla & Ashoka crashed on that one planet with the fuzzy aliens who curled up into rolling balls, they didn't even want the Jedi there because even though Jedi are supposed to be peacekeepers, they fight & bring battle to people that want nothing to do with it.

Not everyone loves Jedi. And none of that has to do with Traviss' writing.

No, not everyone likes the Jedi. In universe. OOU, the Jedi have been depicted variously as short sighted and lacking in empathy, but never in outright collusion with a Sith in perpetuating a war, as Traviss depicts them

Jedi aren't invincible, you know. Many have fallen to trained warriors with absolutely no Force abilities. They were being slaughtered by the Vong.

Who were detached from the Force, and therefore deprived the Jedi of one of their key advantages over non-Force users - the ability to know what their opponent was planning to do.

Grevious was beating them both in one-on-one and in small groups.

With superhuman speed and reflexes, and the ability to throw up the spinning lightsaber barrier that no human was capable of.

Jango could & did take some out(hell, poor Coleman Trebor never stood a chance in AOTC

Perhaps because he was focussing on the Sith Lord at the time.

And the Mandalorians caused heavy casualties during the Mandalorian War, which combined with the Jedi that went over to Revan's side almost wiped out the Order.

Certainly. And he can add the fact that the Clone Army killed hundreds of Jedi during Order 66. Jedi can certainly be killed by inferior fighters - the issue is with the assertion that they can be killed in one-on-one combat by an opponent lacking any of the advantages mentioned above.

It's not like Anakin's fleet had nothing but clones serving in it. There were quite a few Republic officers & other men in it. Not to mention that the clones weren't commanding any ships. They were there to fight only. Who cares about any hard number of available clone troopers, just know that they are there & available.

Backpeddle much? The problem isn't with any specific numbers, but with orders of magnitude, and Traviss' numbers are at least half a dozen orders of magnitude off.

Granted, she didn't have to devote as much page space to Mandos as she did in LotF, but I don't mind that as much as I do Jacen going completely stupid once Lumiya died or the WTFOMGBBQ?!? decision of making Daala the f***ing head of the Republic.

Which excuses the Mando-wanking...how, exactly?

And in a round & about way, Traviss is right. Why does it always have to be about Jedis? Yeah, most of the main cast are Jedis, due to being Solos & Skywalkers, but is that all Star Wars has to offer anymore? You barely hear s**t about Lando anymore, him getting a mention maybe twice a series if that post NJO. Where the f**k is Wraith Squadron, and why can't we get any more books about them, especially considering that they were a combo of Rogue Squadron & the Dirty Dozen? What, there's no more stories to be told that require the heroes' hands to get dirty?

Has he watched the films. Y'know - the ones where the fate of the galaxy rested on the choices made by Anakin and Luke Skywalker, Jedi Knights?

Death Star and Millenium Falcon were a godsend, but surely not every story needs to be a multi-book "fate of the galaxy is at stake & only the Jedi can save us" epic, does it? Look, I love the Jedi as much as the next guy, but why can't fans of SW also revel in the explots of Lt. Kettch, feared TIE pilot anymore?

Again, fair enough. There is, however, a difference between not needing Jedi involvement to make a good story and the "Jedi are EEEVIL" crap we got from Traviss.

Keep up the good work SSM.

[SuperSaiyaMan12]

Well the Mandalorian Wars didn't give 365 TRILLION casualties. The Yuuzhan Vong War had the most casualties of any war in Star Wars. Even the Clone Wars and Galactic Civil War were a drop in the bucket compared to that. My point was, Boba Fett and his Mandalorians SIDED with the scarred bastards at the start of the war and even helped in a few battles.

[Captain Seafort]

Well the Mandalorian Wars didn't give 365 TRILLION casualties.

If anything, that's him shooting himself in the foot, if the Mandalorian Wars (which the Mandalorians started) weren't as bad as the Vong War.

I'm not suggesting that you cut and paste my argument (indeed, I'd strongly advise you not to) - simply to take those arguments you consider useful and present them in your own words.

[Monroe]

Well the Mandalorian Wars didn't give 365 TRILLION casualties. The Yuuzhan Vong War had the most casualties of any war in Star Wars. Even the Clone Wars and Galactic Civil War were a drop in the bucket compared to that. My point was, Boba Fett and his Mandalorians SIDED with the scarred bastards at the start of the war and even helped in a few battles.

Wasn't the Mandalorian Wars kind of small anyway? Like it was in the same generation or two as the Droid Uprising, the Great SIth War, and the Second Sith War. I always thought the Mandalorian part of the wars was the smallest.

[SuperSaiyaMan12]

Well the Mandalorian Wars didn't give 365 TRILLION casualties. The Yuuzhan Vong War had the most casualties of any war in Star Wars. Even the Clone Wars and Galactic Civil War were a drop in the bucket compared to that. My point was, Boba Fett and his Mandalorians SIDED with the scarred bastards at the start of the war and even helped in a few battles.

Wasn't the Mandalorian Wars kind of small anyway? Like it was in the same generation or two as the Droid Uprising, the Great SIth War, and the Second Sith War. I always thought the Mandalorian part of the wars was the smallest.

It was as large as the Jedi Civil War (Second Sith War doesn't exist). It raged throughout the Outer and Mid Rim, hell if it weren't for Revan, the Inner Rim would have been invaded.

[Monroe]

It was as large as the Jedi Civil War (Second Sith War doesn't exist). It raged throughout the Outer and Mid Rim, hell if it weren't for Revan, the Inner Rim would have been invaded.

Oh so Revan's war is called the Jedi Civil War? I thought it was the Second Sith War. Alright that's larger than I thought.

[SuperSaiyaMan12]

It was as large as the Jedi Civil War (Second Sith War doesn't exist). It raged throughout the Outer and Mid Rim, hell if it weren't for Revan, the Inner Rim would have been invaded.

Oh so Revan's war is called the Jedi Civil War? I thought it was the Second Sith War. Alright that's larger than I thought.

The initial Mandalorian invasion was through three sectors at once. The Republic was caught completely off guard and it lagged during the war.

[Deepcrush]

The Republic didn't just lag, they sat still!