No Money Economy-unrealistic and stupid

[Mikey]

True - credit is only a useful concept when there is tangible, if not real or liquid, earning potential or assett to back it.

[Sionnach Glic]

Good question, Mark.

[Tyyr]

Old topic, I know. Sorry if this rambles but its something that's always bugged me about Trek.

The status of money in the Federation or Humanity alone is very mucked up. Mostly because no one could seem to decide if they'd have it or not. (This is just one area I think about when the creative team whines about Trek having too much canon to keep track of. They don't even bother to keep track of something as simple as whether or not the federation/humans actually use some form of money.) To me there are just too many inconsistencies to make any one solution or explanation work completely.

First off, I'm fairly certain money exists. "We work to better ourselves," sounds good. At least it does until your toilet backs up an no one around has decided to better themselves by being a plumber. Or your lights go out because someone didn't better themselves by becoming a fusion reactor maintenance tech and the local power plant shuts down. Like it or not there are a lot of jobs that exist that no one in their right mind would do for free but society just can't function without. While some people might happily work as scientists, doctors, lawyers, or starship captains for free you can't build a society with just those top tier jobs. It doesn't work.

The solution to me is this. Money isn't absolutely necessary. This is to satisfy Picard's spiel in First Contact (I'm putting down Jake's comments to trying to con his friend) that money is no longer the driving force in people's lives. In the Federation it isn't. Citizens are guaranteed a roof over their heads, clothes on their backs, food in their bellies, a doctor when they need it and an education if they want it. Even if all they ever do is sit around their government supplied apartment woofing down replicated Doritos and surfing for the latest Orion slave girl porn. However if you want something more you've got to pay for it. Holodeck time, the house on the beach, trips to Risa, an actual Orion slave girl, they all cost money, or credits if you prefer. Since you don't absolutely have to have money to survive you just work for money for things you want. Your basic needs are guaranteed. This allows for Starship crewers buying things on shore leave, people like Vash getting greedy, guys like Sisko's dad to have their restaurants, Picard making grandiose statements about people bettering themselves (though in my explanation he's a bit delusional) etc. It doesn't work perfectly but in this tangled mish mash of contradictions I think it makes everyone equally unhappy, like a good compromise should.

Remember when the Ferengi were introduced? They absolute went nuts for the gold in the Starfleet comm badges? Now fast forward a decade and Quark whines about a crate full of gold pressed latinum being full of worthless gold? My personal pet theory for that is that not long after the Ferengi first ran into the Federation they learned about replicator technology. They suddenly realized that should anyone get their hands on a replicator they could start to make all the gold they wanted. Their economy would crumble as the sudden abundance of gold would destroy its value. So they went looking for a solution, latinum. I can't remember but for this to work as a currency it would have to be non-replicable. I think this is supported by the fact that Jake Sisko asked Nog for some money and Nog refused. Jake wasn't able to just go replicate some gold pressed latinum. So now they have a commodity, latinum, that can't be replicated. Those annoying humans can't wipe out the economy again. They press it in gold as both a transport medium and to make all the Ferengi happy who still associate gold with wealth. As a interstellar currency it works. It can't be replicated, it has value (I'm going to assume not just because. It could be a necessary resource for making something, dunno) and small quantities are worth a lot. For an interstellar economy I think your currency will need to be something just like this.

[Mikey]

It would have beggared belief to say that the Ferengi didn't have replicator tech by the time of TNG: "The Last Outpost," save for one factor - they still used gold, then gold-pressed latinum, as currency. If the fact of the economy being based on a non-replicable material was relatively long-standing, then they would have naturally progressed to "representative" currency. That is, we stopped using gold and silver, and started using little pieces of paper which were markers for a particular value of gold or silver. Finally we even stopped tying the little pieces of paper to the actual precious material. Even coinage has gone that way - there sure isn't 5 cents worth of nickel in a nickel anymore.

Further, the predominance of IT in 'Trek mean that such a system would rather rapidly progress naturally to virtual currency, e-wallets, cyber-credit, or whatever you wish to call it. The continued Ferengi insistence on hard, precious currency means that they obviously haven't gotten to that point yet.

In other words, Tyyr makes a lot of sense. In a completely accidental way, this could mean that the writers kind of "backed in" to another point which was largely overlooked in 'Trek: similar levels of advancement =/= identical technology.

[Tyyr]

There's two immediately obvious reasons that the Ferengi haven't moved onto a fiat electronic currency.

1) They have. They simply don't bother using it with people outside their "empire". This would prevent foreign influences on their internal economy. They don't want to open their currency to the vagaries of other people's money so they insist all external trade be just that. Trade. Gold pressed latinum works as latinum meets all the criteria for good commodity money. Universally valuable, non-replicable, small quantities are valuable.

2) They don't want to. There was a lot of resistance to taking the US money system off the gold standard. Perhaps there's enough resistance to the idea in the Ferengi that the idea just never got very far. It's not a big stretch to imagine as greedy a people as the Ferengi not wanting their money backed up by a promise instead of cold hard... stuff.

[Mikey]

1) They have...

No, they didn't. In DS9 we saw numerous examples of gold-pressed latinum being the accepted unit of exchange even among Ferengi.

2) They don't want to...

More palusible. It would seem to be very difficult in a galaxy-spanning, even quadrant-spanning, economy, but hey - it's 'Trek.

[Tyyr]

No, they didn't. In DS9 we saw numerous examples of gold-pressed latinum being the accepted unit of exchange even among Ferengi.

If a guy offered you an ounce of gold as payment instead of an equivalent amount of cash would you accept it? Traders and those used to dealing with other cultures and species probably have large amounts of their wealth tied up in things like latinum. It would make sense for them to want to pay others in it, even other Ferengi. It's not my preferred solution to the question but it's possible.

More palusible. It would seem to be very difficult in a galaxy-spanning, even quadrant-spanning, economy, but hey - it's 'Trek.

I think having working fiat money would be even more implausible. Try to convince some guy on the far side of the quadrant that your money is good when it might take him six months at high warp to even find someone who's ever heard of your government. To someone like that your money is just pretty toilet paper. A rare and useful material would be far more likely to be accepted. It can also be far more stable, most of the time. Obviously sometimes things like replicator tech vs. the gold standard happen but that's a risk you run.

[Mikey]

Granted. But if there were a working usage of representative currency internal to the Ferengi, we'd have seen an example of it being offered. Every transaction between Ferengi involved latinum, and no mention of an alternative.

[Tyyr]

*Shrug* I can't argue that there's no evidence of it. I'm just postulating it as a possibility remote though it may be. Personally I prefer option #2 myself. I think it fits with them culturally. The idea of a money with no real value, no solid goods backing it up, seems like it woud be anathema to the Ferengi.

I expected some comment on the first 2/3rds of the comment, not on the rambling 1/3 about the Ferengi.

[Coalition]

Another option is that a replicator just rearranges matter, rather than performing alchemy to change the element.

So gold would be valuable, as replicating gold just takes some from the onboard stores, and rearranges it. But fi you don't have gold, you can't replicate it. Add in various industrial uses for gold, and you can make a case for gold being valuable.

So you use another precious metal, in this case (p)latinum.


You can see from DS9 that trade did occur, and several episodes in TNG had items that could not be replicated (and had to be aquired at a starbase).


As to the no money economy, the fun part occurs when you get a bunch of slackers who don't mind sitting on their butt, ordering holo-porn, and eating processed foods. You soon get an economy drain, as raw materials are diverted to satisfy a group of people who will never produce.

[Lazar]

The status of money in the Federation or Humanity alone is very mucked up. Mostly because no one could seem to decide if they'd have it or not. (This is just one area I think about when the creative team whines about Trek having too much canon to keep track of. They don't even bother to keep track of something as simple as whether or not the federation/humans actually use some form of money.) To me there are just too many inconsistencies to make any one solution or explanation work completely.

I agree - and I think the same would apply to Trek's treatment of religion as well. I've always wished that Trek could have more unity of vision, and deal with social and political issues in greater depth.

The solution to me is this. Money isn't absolutely necessary. This is to satisfy Picard's spiel in First Contact (I'm putting down Jake's comments to trying to con his friend) that money is no longer the driving force in people's lives. In the Federation it isn't. Citizens are guaranteed a roof over their heads, clothes on their backs, food in their bellies, a doctor when they need it and an education if they want it. Even if all they ever do is sit around their government supplied apartment woofing down replicated Doritos and surfing for the latest Orion slave girl porn. However if you want something more you've got to pay for it. Holodeck time, the house on the beach, trips to Risa, an actual Orion slave girl, they all cost money, or credits if you prefer. Since you don't absolutely have to have money to survive you just work for money for things you want. Your basic needs are guaranteed. This allows for Starship crewers buying things on shore leave, people like Vash getting greedy, guys like Sisko's dad to have their restaurants, Picard making grandiose statements about people bettering themselves (though in my explanation he's a bit delusional) etc. It doesn't work perfectly but in this tangled mish mash of contradictions I think it makes everyone equally unhappy, like a good compromise should.

I proposed something similar a while back - I suppose it would be something like an idealized vision of Soviet economics, where the means of production are controlled by the public, and everyone's basic needs are taken care of, but credits (i.e. money) exist for luxury and specialty items. Then the question would be how you earn credits - maybe they're a kind of job benefit; maybe you earn them for doing overtime?

[Aaron]

Another option is that a replicator just rearranges matter, rather than performing alchemy to change the element.

I've argued that for a while, I'd say it's a pre-requisite in order for what we see TNG and beyond to make sense. If it was alchemy then you could just feed dirt into it and get whatever you want and all those mines and various facilities wouldn't be required.

As to the no money economy, the fun part occurs when you get a bunch of slackers who don't mind sitting on their butt, ordering holo-porn, and eating processed foods. You soon get an economy drain, as raw materials are diverted to satisfy a group of people who will never produce.

Ahh...Jake Sisko.

[Tyyr]

Another option is that a replicator just rearranges matter, rather than performing alchemy to change the element.

I've argued that for a while, I'd say it's a pre-requisite in order for what we see TNG and beyond to make sense. If it was alchemy then you could just feed dirt into it and get whatever you want and all those mines and various facilities wouldn't be required.

The assumption I've ran on is that its easier to rearrange stuff of similar atomic weight. For instance to just put the carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, etc. into the right places to make food or metals for parts. That it's energy intensive to create heavier elements from lighter feed but it can be done.

[Coalition]

The assumption I've ran on is that its easier to rearrange stuff of similar atomic weight. For instance to just put the carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, etc. into the right places to make food or metals for parts. That it's energy intensive to create heavier elements from lighter feed but it can be done.

Actually, until you reach iron, you can liberate energy. That is how fusion works.

Above iron though, it takes energy to produce heavier elemements, which is how fission works.

[Mikey]

The need for mining, processing, and manufacturing always stemmed, IMHO, from the fact of important, commonplace, but un-replicate-able items... like warp coils, or hatches.