USS Equinox problem

[Duskofdead]

Recall what happened when their cells made contact with another life form? (Borg and human.) It always seemed to me plausible that they might have evolved in fluidic space along with other organisms, but the virulence of their autoimmune system and cells basically wiped everything else out. Perhaps they evolved from something "predatory" in that sense, since we were told the alien cells were "consuming" Harry Kim when infected.

True, but that doesn't preclude the possibility of multiple such species evolving along similar lines or (more likely) from the same parent species. It was mentioned that the bioships had the same cell structure as 8472, suggesting that they're genetically related in some way.

It implied to me that they were genetically engineered out of basically the same genetic code. It's possible they were a separate evolution altogether but that would imply some sentience or some level of intelligence which we didn't see at all.

[Captain Seafort]

It implied to me that they were genetically engineered out of basically the same genetic code. It's possible they were a separate evolution altogether but that would imply some sentience or some level of intelligence which we didn't see at all.

True, but then again we didn't learn much about the ships - only that they were genetically similar to 8472. I was thinking along the lines of horse and rider. After all, all Earth animals have essentially the same cell structure, so why shouldn't that apply to fluidic space?

[Duskofdead]

It implied to me that they were genetically engineered out of basically the same genetic code. It's possible they were a separate evolution altogether but that would imply some sentience or some level of intelligence which we didn't see at all.

True, but then again we didn't learn much about the ships - only that they were genetically similar to 8472. I was thinking along the lines of horse and rider. After all, all Earth animals have essentially the same cell structure, so why shouldn't that apply to fluidic space?

I agree. It would have been interesting to learn more. An episode about a ship running around "rogue" after its pilot died would have been interesting too.

[sunnyside]

They did have that comment about "genetic purity" as well. It's also possible that there were other species/cultures in fluidic space at one point and they were deliberately terminated. For a species as advanced as they are (or even as advanced as Starfleet is for that matter) there is no need to have any other species.

@ Seafort

Nope you're making the positive claim here if anyone is.

You're claiming that their stated intentions were a lie and that the invasion fleet planed to just stop instead of continuing.

We're just claiming that the reality of the situation was what it appeared to be.

Still in discussions like this the positive/negative claim philosphy tends to be on shakey ground.

I imagine you arguing over which ice cream tastes better. Vanilla or Chocolate. You'd attempt to put burden of proof on whichever side you didn't agree with and hope that the other person wastes their time searching for polls and neurotransmiter studies while you kick back and wait to refute whatever the find out of hand.

Actually you've got a perfectly tight ability to deny our side. They really did about all they could to show that 8472 was a threat to the entire Galaxy without wasting time in an already long and pretty tight double episode. Saying they were going to purge the Galaxy. Sending an invasion fleet in instead of taking up defensive positions. Attacking Voyager when Janeway was trying to negotiate with them. Even dropping the your galaxy must be purged and genetic integrity stuff.

I mean in the context of the scorpeon episodes what more could 8472 possibly have done to show Janeway that they were a threat to the entire Galaxy?

[Tsukiyumi]

I agree. It would have been interesting to learn more. An episode about a ship running around "rogue" after its pilot died would have been interesting too.

Thankfully, we got more than one episode about them... Unlike some other cool concepts...

[Captain Seafort]

Nope you're making the positive claim here if anyone is.

You're claiming that their stated intentions were a lie and that the invasion fleet planed to just stop instead of continuing.

We're just claiming that the reality of the situation was what it appeared to be.

"Appeared to be"? Define "appearance" - it's an entirely subjective term. The question of whether 8472 were going after all species is an objective one, and one that you should provide evidence of if you wish to argue it.

I mean in the context of the scorpeon episodes what more could 8472 possibly have done to show Janeway that they were a threat to the entire Galaxy?

Actually trying to destroy Voyager instead of merely shooing it away - pursuing the ship if necessary. Instead the individual concerned settled for ensuring that the threat posed was removed.

[Tsukiyumi]

I always wondered why Voyager wasn't vaporized by that shot. Apparently their weapons take a really long time to charge to "Cube-smashing" levels.

[stitch626]

Or mybe they were not as effective against duranium/other starfleet hull metals as they were agaist the hull of borg ships.

[Duskofdead]

Or mybe they were not as effective against duranium/other starfleet hull metals as they were agaist the hull of borg ships.

The opening scene of cubes going up in a few shots might have been fired by several ships at once. The cube protecting Voyager took several hits without going up.

[Duskofdead]

"Appeared to be"? Define "appearance" - it's an entirely subjective term. The question of whether 8472 were going after all species is an objective one, and one that you should provide evidence of if you wish to argue it.

You're backpedalling. Sunnyside has a point, you are arguing that the episode was not what it appeared to be. For instance describing 8472 as reacting only defensively requires a lot of elaborate reverse engineering and justificaiton after the fact which Rochey has tried to provide. But nevertheless it basically requires us to look at the story of the episode entirely differently from how the episode itself was actually portrayed.

Actually trying to destroy Voyager instead of merely shooing it away - pursuing the ship if necessary. Instead the individual concerned settled for ensuring that the threat posed was removed.

Ships were specifically sent after Voyager well BEFORE Voyager ever entered fluidic space. The Borg sacrificed a ship to save Voyager.

[Sionnach Glic]

Okay, let's use your logic.

a) Voyager is invading 8472's space - (point accepted.)
b) The space immediate around Voyager was empty for some time.
c) Voyager therefore owns the space around it where it arrived in fluidic space.
d) 8472 ships showing up armed deserved to be fired upon. Voyager was merely engaging in self-defense and acting territorially and in fact was not required to issue any sort of warning via the comm at all.

This is the argument you have put forth for your "8472 is just defending its territory" stance. So it's only fair to apply it universally.

Look up the term 'annexation'.

I agree communication may have been more difficult than we conjecture but this honestly doesn't change the fact that you are placing all responsibility for the conflict on Voyager.

Pretty much, yes. They had neither the right nor need to go flying straight through 8472 space. They could easily have turned around and left, and then taken the long way around. That is exactly what they should have done, not provoke a war.

essentially gets a free pass to slap alien cells into Voyager crew

They may not have even intended to do that. Cells could easily infect someone merely by being near them.
Anyway, even if they did mean to do it, they still have every right to. Voyager violated their territory, interfered with a military operation, and beamed armed personel over. All hostile actions when viewed from 8472's POV, and hostile actions require a response.

fire on a fleeing vessel making no attempt to fight,

Whether or not it was fleeing is irrelevant, as I have pointed out numerous times already. It was their territory, they can deal with trespassers in any way they like.

In fact you've really not given any compelling reason we should accept that perspective at all, the people who HAVE accepted it are pretty much the ones routinely bashing on Janeway/Voyager in these forums all the time, so there is a bias factor.

For the last freaking time, Janeway or my thoughts on her are irrelevant. The blame lies with the entire crew of the ship for not doing anything to prevent a war.
And that is still further irrelevant, as this debate is not about Voyager. It's about 8472.

Oh yes you are, every aggressive move on Voyager's part is put under a microscope, every aggressive move on 8472's part is waved off by you as totally understandable.

*sigh*
For the last time, that is because 8472's actions against Voyager were fully understandable and justified. And again I'll point out the complete irrelevance of this.

Attempting to kill Voyager crew members and destroy Voyager just for being there (we don't even know the individual on board was a member of a "military" or engaged in any form of military boarding action-- hell he could have been having lunch or entertaining himself) was and continues to be a problem in your argument.

It's not a problem at all. If there's a military unit in your territory belonging to a foreign government exhibiting hostile intents, then you are fully justified in opening fire on it. Real life countries have done this as well, you know.

Many of us had a very different interpretation of the same events.

What different interpretation? That 8472 is xenocidal because it defended it's territory against an agressor?

Voyager persistently exhibited intent to protect itself, not hostile intent.

A Soviet battleship sails up to Hawaii. It then threatens to fire on any US vessels that confront it. Do you think this is not a hostile action? Because that's pretty much what 8472 would have seen happening.

And Voyager being in Fluidic space and firing on armed ships which approached it is NOTHING more than what you have consistently DEFENDED 8472 doing.

Voyager was in their space, thus they had every right to open fire. How many times do I need to repeat myself?

The only reason I can possibly see that they are "useless" is because they're inconvenient to your argument.

Look, this is getting damn tiring at this point.
I have given reasoning why these quotes are useless. Adress them, or stop saying I'm just ignoring them.

Nope you're making the positive claim here if anyone is.

You're claiming that their stated intentions were a lie and that the invasion fleet planed to just stop instead of continuing.

We're just claiming that the reality of the situation was what it appeared to be.

*sigh*
That's not how a debate works.

You claim A to be true (that 8472 are xenocidal).

We ask you for proof, and contend that A is not true (that they are not xenocidal).

Therefore the burden of proof is upon you. You are claiming they are xenocidal, and the quotes are your evidence.

Saying they were going to purge the Galaxy.

Is anyone actualy going to adress the problems I pointed out with this quote, or are they just going to ignore me?

Sending an invasion fleet in instead of taking up defensive positions.

Did you perhaps miss the fact that they were at war with the Borg?

Attacking Voyager when Janeway was trying to negotiate with them.

Telling someone you're going to open fire if confronted when you're in their territory is not negotiating.

I mean in the context of the scorpeon episodes what more could 8472 possibly have done to show Janeway that they were a threat to the entire Galaxy?

Perhaps do something more than issue vague threats in the middle of battle and defend their territory against intruders?

[Tsukiyumi]

Or mybe they were not as effective against duranium/other starfleet hull metals as they were agaist the hull of borg ships.

The opening scene of cubes going up in a few shots might have been fired by several ships at once. The cube protecting Voyager took several hits without going up.

Hmmm...

I seem to recall dialogue saying something like " They're powering their weapons." or something to that effect when the first bioship opened up on Voyager. It's been years, so I could be wrong. Plus, it takes what? Nine of them to blow up a planet? Unless that slightly larger middle ship has some kind of hypermatter reactor (the 'Trek tech equivalent, anyways), each ship must be able to generate massive discharge levels with that weapon.

[Duskofdead]

Look up the term 'annexation'.

Look up the term "double standard."

Pretty much, yes. They had neither the right nor need to go flying straight through 8472 space. They could easily have turned around and left, and then taken the long way around. That is exactly what they should have done, not provoke a war.

Total rewriting of the episode. And the Borg were not defeated, and the area of space was still clearly Borg. It just had an invading army present.

They may not have even intended to do that. Cells could easily infect someone merely by being near them.
Anyway, even if they did mean to do it, they still have every right to. Voyager violated their territory, interfered with a military operation, and beamed armed personel over. All hostile actions when viewed from 8472's POV, and hostile actions require a response.

Nevertheless if Tuvok touched aliens and his cells proved lethal to them, and said species then retaliated I have a feeling you'd say they were totally justified.

Whether or not it was fleeing is irrelevant, as I have pointed out numerous times already. It was their territory, they can deal with trespassers in any way they like.

Sure, if they like to start wars and perhaps if their intent is to wipe out anyone who crosses their path. If they were open to ANY of the diplomatic overtures you have condemned Voyager for not orchestrating, however, then we should have seen extremely different behavior from them than just wild firing on everyone they saw.

For the last freaking time, Janeway or my thoughts on her are irrelevant. The blame lies with the entire crew of the ship for not doing anything to prevent a war.
And that is still further irrelevant, as this debate is not about Voyager. It's about 8472.

The war was already ongoing, and 8472 had already targetted Voyager in that war. Condemning them after the fact for entering a region of space they could have had no reasonable way of knowing some alien was invading is ridiculous.

*sigh*
For the last time, that is because 8472's actions against Voyager were fully understandable and justified. And again I'll point out the complete irrelevance of this.

Point not conceded. They weren't justified at all. Somehow plenty of aliens, especially ones who aren't out to start wars or posture aggression against others, don't simply try to destroy everything they come across. It's even up for debate if it was "their space" or if they would have even cared if it was or wasn't.

It's not a problem at all. If there's a military unit in your territory belonging to a foreign government exhibiting hostile intents, then you are fully justified in opening fire on it. Real life countries have done this as well, you know.

If someone invades Saudi Arabia and fires upon the U.S. bases or personnell there, then THEY have committed acts of war on the U.S. Not the other way around.

What different interpretation? That 8472 is xenocidal because it defended it's territory against an agressor?

That blind-firing at someone is not justified and that you cease to be engaging in "self defense" when you pursue an enemy and ignore all attempts at communication.

Voyager was in their space, thus they had every right to open fire. How many times do I need to repeat myself?

Your argument in my mind is pretty dead. You are conveniently changing the rules... when 8472 invades an area it becomes their space, when Voyager invades an area it's an act of war.

[Tsukiyumi]

Look up the term 'annexation'.

With that argument, we could say that Voyager had 'annexed' part of fluidic space upon entry, therefore the 8472 ships were trespassing.

They may not have even intended to do that. Cells could easily infect someone merely by being near them.
Anyway, even if they did mean to do it, they still have every right to. Voyager violated their territory, interfered with a military operation, and beamed armed personel over. All hostile actions when viewed from 8472's POV, and hostile actions require a response..

It smacked Harry, and the cells seemed to automatically start consuming him (sure was easy to fix, though), so we should guess that 8472 did that unintentionally.

Whether or not it was fleeing is irrelevant, as I have pointed out numerous times already. It was their territory, they can deal with trespassers in any way they like.

Recently conquered territory, yes.

What different interpretation? That 8472 is xenocidal because it defended it's territory against an agressor?

The interpretation that their stated intentions, insane taste in art, and extremely aggressive attitude indicate a certain sociopathic doctrine.

Voyager was in their space, thus they had every right to open fire. How many times do I need to repeat myself?

As did Voyager to return fire. The region was in dispute, so Voyager had as much right to claim it as 8472.

Look, this is getting damn tiring at this point.
I have given reasoning why these quotes are useless. Adress them, or stop saying I'm just ignoring them.

I agree with your WW2 analogy. The second incedent, however, seems to suggest that all of them felt that way.

Nope you're making the positive claim here if anyone is.

You're claiming that their stated intentions were a lie and that the invasion fleet planed to just stop instead of continuing.

We're just claiming that the reality of the situation was what it appeared to be.

*sigh*
That's not how a debate works.

You claim A to be true (that 8472 are xenocidal).

We ask you for proof, and contend that A is not true (that they are not xenocidal).

Therefore the burden of proof is upon you. You are claiming they are xenocidal, and the quotes are your evidence.

You disagree with the validity of the statements made by 8472 on two occasions as the basis of your argument. Really, isn't saying that 8472 isn't xenocidal (did I actually coin a phrase with that?) also a positive assertion?

Telling someone you're going to open fire if confronted when you're in their territory is not negotiating.

Ah, but Voyager 'annexed' that territory as soon as they came through, right? They were at war at that point, at least.

Perhaps do something more than issue vague threats in the middle of battle and defend their territory against intruders?

...They stated an intent to purge the galaxy, then proved their capability to do so.

[stitch626]

insane taste in art

Yeah