USS Equinox problem

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:50 pm

The main positive argument is dusk's claim that Species 8472 were attacking or planning to attack every species they encountered, with the aim of galactic genocide (galacticide?).

Rochey and myself are arguing the negative claim that they were not doing so, on the grounds that the only evidence in support of the positive claim is distinctly dubious due its context and nature.

Post by **Tsukiyumi** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:52 pm

That about sums it up.

stitch626 · Post by **stitch626** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:52 pm

Ok, thanks. I kind of forgot after reading pages of super long posts with the numbers 8, 4, 7, and 2 all over.
BTW, do we ever find out what they call themselves?

Post by **Tsukiyumi** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:03 pm

I don't know if they'd even have a collective name, as they were the only species in their... well, whatever the hell "fluidic space" is supposed to be.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:26 pm

Given that they're the only race in their universe, it would be quite logical to assume they may not have a name for themselves. Why would they need to?

Post by **Tsukiyumi** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:31 pm

Right. They may have individual names to distinguish between individuals, but a name for their species as a whole seems unnecessary and illogical.

BTW, have we ever discussed what the hell "fluidic space" is, or where it's located?

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:32 pm

Rochey wrote:Given that they're the only race in their universe, it would be quite logical to assume they may not have a name for themselves. Why would they need to?

It's possible that they aren't the only species - their bioships, while sharing many genetic similarities may count as a species in their own right (or several species, given the dffferent models).

Post by **Tsukiyumi** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:34 pm

True. There are a dozen questions about them that I can think of off the top of my head.

Like, " What do they eat if they are the only lifeforms in their... er, realm?"

And, " Are there any planets or stars in fluidic space?"

Post by **Mikey** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:38 pm

Referring to the "no name for themselves" thing, I just got this mental picture of a distressed Kes, saying telepathically, "What do you even call yourselves?!"

And a confused-looking 8472 replying, "Well, I'm Ed, and this is Roy..."

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:40 pm

Mikey wrote:Referring to the "no name for themselves" thing, I just got this mental picture of a distressed Kes, saying telepathically, "What do you even call yourselves?!"

And a confused-looking 8472 replying, "Well, I'm Ed, and this is Roy..."

Post by **Tsukiyumi** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:41 pm

Duskofdead · Post by **Duskofdead** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:52 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:
Rochey wrote:Given that they're the only race in their universe, it would be quite logical to assume they may not have a name for themselves. Why would they need to?
It's possible that they aren't the only species - their bioships, while sharing many genetic similarities may count as a species in their own right (or several species, given the dffferent models).

Recall what happened when their cells made contact with another life form? (Borg and human.) It always seemed to me plausible that they might have evolved in fluidic space along with other organisms, but the virulence of their autoimmune system and cells basically wiped everything else out. Perhaps they evolved from something "predatory" in that sense, since we were told the alien cells were "consuming" Harry Kim when infected.

Post by **Tsukiyumi** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:55 pm

A good theory. No one seems to want to touch "What the hell is fluidic space?" or, "What did they mean by 'proximity' to our galaxy?"

I've never spotted fluidic space though a telescope, so I guess it's supposed to just be a weird parallel universe/additional dimension?

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:01 pm

Duskofdead wrote:Recall what happened when their cells made contact with another life form? (Borg and human.) It always seemed to me plausible that they might have evolved in fluidic space along with other organisms, but the virulence of their autoimmune system and cells basically wiped everything else out. Perhaps they evolved from something "predatory" in that sense, since we were told the alien cells were "consuming" Harry Kim when infected.

True, but that doesn't preclude the possibility of multiple such species evolving along similar lines or (more likely) from the same parent species. It was mentioned that the bioships had the same cell structure as 8472, suggesting that they're genetically related in some way.

Duskofdead · Post by **Duskofdead** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:05 pm

2) Voyager didn't charge in and threaten to open fire

Yes, they did. They invaded 8472 space, and when confronted threatened to open fire.

Okay, let's use your logic.

a) Voyager is invading 8472's space - (point accepted.)
b) The space immediate around Voyager was empty for some time.
c) Voyager therefore owns the space around it where it arrived in fluidic space.
d) 8472 ships showing up armed deserved to be fired upon. Voyager was merely engaging in self-defense and acting territorially and in fact was not required to issue any sort of warning via the comm at all.

This is the argument you have put forth for your "8472 is just defending its territory" stance. So it's only fair to apply it universally.

Which it may or may not have been possible to recieve.
Also, they were under no obligation to answer. There was an armed ship in their space declaring their intention to open fire. They were quite justified in opening fire.

I agree communication may have been more difficult than we conjecture but this honestly doesn't change the fact that you are placing all responsibility for the conflict on Voyager. 8472 essentially gets a free pass to slap alien cells into Voyager crew, fire on a fleeing vessel making no attempt to fight, etc. The locus of blame is solely on Voyager and that seems incredibly arbitrary. In fact you've really not given any compelling reason we should accept that perspective at all, the people who HAVE accepted it are pretty much the ones routinely bashing on Janeway/Voyager in these forums all the time, so there is a bias factor.

I'm not the one ignoring every action 8472 has taken, and obsessing over two quotes which I have shown could mean numerous things.

Oh yes you are, every aggressive move on Voyager's part is put under a microscope, every aggressive move on 8472's part is waved off by you as totally understandable. Well, I don't know how many times this has to be said, but obviously several of us don't think this was a clear cut case of self defense or instinctive reaction to a "threat." Attempting to kill Voyager crew members and destroy Voyager just for being there (we don't even know the individual on board was a member of a "military" or engaged in any form of military boarding action-- hell he could have been having lunch or entertaining himself) was and continues to be a problem in your argument. You, personally, wave it off as an understandable military reaction and then proceed forward with the argument. Many of us had a very different interpretation of the same events.

After Voyager invaded their territory in an armed vessel, interfered with military operations, and exhibited hostile intents. They were quite right to open fire on such a ship.

Voyager persistently exhibited intent to protect itself, not hostile intent. And Voyager being in Fluidic space and firing on armed ships which approached it is NOTHING more than what you have consistently DEFENDED 8472 doing.

Funny, I haven't disregarded anything but two quotes which are useless in this debate. You are the one who refuses to acknowledge that 8472's actions did not indicate a wish to take over the galaxy by simply waving these facts away.

The only reason I can possibly see that they are "useless" is because they're inconvenient to your argument.