Stormfront Part II

[I Am Spartacus]

#1 - It could be possible that the plasma cannon was originally intended as an air-to-surface weapon, which makes the Stuka the perfect platform.

#2 - We maybe shouldn't focus as much on the capabilities of the Stuka. As a real-world example from the same era, Claire Chennault's Flying Tigers acheived outstanding success exclusively using the P-40 Tomahawk - technically, one of the worst-performing and least reliable fighters of the era.

Actually, the P-40 was not a bad fighter. It certainly wasn't the best of its era, but it was reliable, possessed good strength, and a solid armament.

The JU-37B, on the other hand, was a ground attack aircraft. It had a top speed of a mere 386 km/h, and had been retired by the time the episodes had taken place

For those who mention the tank killing 37 mm cannon that were fitted to some later model stukas, observe:

Stormfront:


Real JU-87B, not compatible with anti tank cannon:


JU-87G, tank killing variant:


Note the distinctively stepped cockpit on the G, and the unstepped cockpit on the Storm Front Stuka, a dead giveaway that the plane was not capable of even mounting the cannon.

[Mikey]

The P-40 was used by the 'Tigers, which were a Marine unit, beacuse the Army Air Corps didn't want 'em. The only advantage, which wasn't really an advantage, was that they were extremely nose-heavy - and had a high operational ceiling. the Flying Tigers created tactics to take advantage of these flaws/traits - just as a Na'Kuhl-trained pilot might.

Back to the Stuka - we of course can't really see or tell just how massive and/or bulky the cannon is. It is most reasonable to say that if it was on a Stuka, then the designed use would be for air-to-surface use. If it were on a Do-88, then the primary use would be for bombardment (and nobody would recognize it) - but that would still be the plane it was on when forced to be used against the NX-01.

That's really the wicket - the weapon was mounted to the Stuka because that fit its role. The Stuka's poor air-to-air capabilities were irrelevant, because that's not what the cannon was primarily for.

[I Am Spartacus]

The P-40 was used by the 'Tigers, which were a Marine unit, beacuse the Army Air Corps didn't want 'em. The only advantage, which wasn't really an advantage, was that they were extremely nose-heavy - and had a high operational ceiling. the Flying Tigers created tactics to take advantage of these flaws/traits - just as a Na'Kuhl-trained pilot might.

Back to the Stuka - we of course can't really see or tell just how massive and/or bulky the cannon is. It is most reasonable to say that if it was on a Stuka, then the designed use would be for air-to-surface use. If it were on a Do-88, then the primary use would be for bombardment (and nobody would recognize it) - but that would still be the plane it was on when forced to be used against the NX-01.

That's really the wicket - the weapon was mounted to the Stuka because that fit its role. The Stuka's poor air-to-air capabilities were irrelevant, because that's not what the cannon was primarily for.

The Tigers flew the P-40B which had good high speed agility, and good top speed. It did have poor climb characteristics, but since it wasn't used as an interceptor that flaw was largely inconsequential. Dive speed and performance were excellent. High altitude performance was poor, though.

I don't know where you got the idea that the P-40 was one of the worst fighters of its day. That simply cannot be further from the truth.

Anyways, the simple point is that the Stuka would simply not have been able to catch the NX-01, let alone engage in aerial combat with it. It simply wasn't capable of it, so ordering a flight of Stukas to do so would have resulting in nothing happening.

[Mikey]

The Tomahawk was successful because of the use to which it was put, not because of own inherent qualities. However, this is not that forum.

In the final analysis, it really doesn't matter if the plane used was a Stuka, a Bf-109, an ME-110, or Scotty's grandmother - with wheels. We're talking about a WWII plane catching a SPACESHIP capable of relativistic speeds!

I know, I know - you can't use relativistic speed in atmosphere; the NX-01 was badly damaged; yadda, yadda, yadda. The point remains, though, that arguing which type of fighter plane would be more capable of taking on the NX-01 is like debating over whether a Ford Model A or Model T is better able to overtake an Indy car.

[Crushproof]

The Tomahawk was successful because of the use to which it was put, not because of own inherent qualities. However, this is not that forum.

In the final analysis, it really doesn't matter if the plane used was a Stuka, a Bf-109, an ME-110, or Scotty's grandmother - with wheels. We're talking about a WWII plane catching a SPACESHIP capable of relativistic speeds!

I know, I know - you can't use relativistic speed in atmosphere; the NX-01 was badly damaged; yadda, yadda, yadda. The point remains, though, that arguing which type of fighter plane would be more capable of taking on the NX-01 is like debating over whether a Ford Model A or Model T is better able to overtake an Indy car.

Relativistic =/= Warp. Completely different contexts.

[Captain Seafort]

The Tomahawk was successful because of the use to which it was put, not because of own inherent qualities. However, this is not that forum.

In the final analysis, it really doesn't matter if the plane used was a Stuka, a Bf-109, an ME-110, or Scotty's grandmother - with wheels. We're talking about a WWII plane catching a SPACESHIP capable of relativistic speeds!

I know, I know - you can't use relativistic speed in atmosphere; the NX-01 was badly damaged; yadda, yadda, yadda. The point remains, though, that arguing which type of fighter plane would be more capable of taking on the NX-01 is like debating over whether a Ford Model A or Model T is better able to overtake an Indy car.

Relativistic =/= Warp. Completely different contexts.

I think he's refering to high-end impulse speed, which for the Galaxy class is 0.92 c. Whether the NX-01 is capable of this sort of speed is questionable, but since impulse engine design apparently "hasn't changed much in over two hundred years" as of "Relics", it's possible.

[Mikey]

I actually meant high impulse, but that's not the point!!! I was just trying to demonstrate what the NX was CAPABLE of compared to a piston-engine aircraft!

[Captain Seafort]

Never mind the issue of speed, the NX-01 ought to have been able to take out its target from orbit! The only way to rationalise it is that the damage suffered during the Xindi conflict, possibly assisted by jamming at the target site was responsible for the horrendous targeting. As for the speed issue, it's possible she was using antigravs to avoid killing thousands of people with the impulse exhaust, and the antigravs had been badly damaged during the Xindi conflict, reducing maximum speed to a snail's (or Stuka's) pace. Lots of ifs, but it seems to answer the outstanding issues.

[Crushproof]

The Tomahawk was successful because of the use to which it was put, not because of own inherent qualities. However, this is not that forum.

In the final analysis, it really doesn't matter if the plane used was a Stuka, a Bf-109, an ME-110, or Scotty's grandmother - with wheels. We're talking about a WWII plane catching a SPACESHIP capable of relativistic speeds!

I know, I know - you can't use relativistic speed in atmosphere; the NX-01 was badly damaged; yadda, yadda, yadda. The point remains, though, that arguing which type of fighter plane would be more capable of taking on the NX-01 is like debating over whether a Ford Model A or Model T is better able to overtake an Indy car.

Relativistic =/= Warp. Completely different contexts.

I think he's refering to high-end impulse speed, which for the Galaxy class is 0.92 c. Whether the NX-01 is capable of this sort of speed is questionable, but since impulse engine design apparently "hasn't changed much in over two hundred years" as of "Relics", it's possible.

Waaaay off. Max impulse for all Federation ships is limited to .25c to prevent time dilation, but they're capable of about .6 to .75c. 0.92 is starting up the Warp drive =/

[Captain Seafort]

I think he's refering to high-end impulse speed, which for the Galaxy class is 0.92 c. Whether the NX-01 is capable of this sort of speed is questionable, but since impulse engine design apparently "hasn't changed much in over two hundred years" as of "Relics", it's possible.

Waaaay off. Max impulse for all Federation ships is limited to .25c to prevent time dilation, but they're capable of about .6 to .75c. 0.92 is starting up the Warp drive =/

Secondary (impulse) propulsion systemto provide sublight velocities up to and including 0.92 lightspeed (c).

High impulse operations, specifically velocities above 0.75 c, may require added power from the aucer Module engines.

My apologies, the 0.92 c reference comes only from the mission objectives for the Galaxy class. Nonetheless, if it was requested it was presumably considered feasable, and nothing in the text suggests that the objective was not achieved. The point stands that the Galaxy class was designed to achieve relatavistic speeds and since the class was using the same basic impulse engine design as the NX, it would not be unrealistic to consider the NX capable of such speeds.

[Crushproof]

I think he's refering to high-end impulse speed, which for the Galaxy class is 0.92 c. Whether the NX-01 is capable of this sort of speed is questionable, but since impulse engine design apparently "hasn't changed much in over two hundred years" as of "Relics", it's possible.

Waaaay off. Max impulse for all Federation ships is limited to .25c to prevent time dilation, but they're capable of about .6 to .75c. 0.92 is starting up the Warp drive =/

Secondary (impulse) propulsion systemto provide sublight velocities up to and including 0.92 lightspeed (c).

High impulse operations, specifically velocities above 0.75 c, may require added power from the aucer Module engines.

My apologies, the 0.92 c reference comes only from the mission objectives for the Galaxy class. Nonetheless, if it was requested it was presumably considered feasable, and nothing in the text suggests that the objective was not achieved. The point stands that the Galaxy class was designed to achieve relatavistic speeds and since the class was using the same basic impulse engine design as the NX, it would not be unrealistic to consider the NX capable of such speeds.

The TNG tech manual is riddled with inconsitencies and isn't remotely close to canon. Frankly I don't take anything it says seriously, unless it's backed up by a canon or more reliable source

[Captain Seafort]

It's certainly got problems, but I find it a useful source to refer to given that it's accurate at least for what the production team inteded at the time, although it's obviously overridden by true canon.

[I Am Spartacus]

But in ST:IV we see Kirk's BOP engage warp drive while still in Earth's atmosphere. Granted, that was a ship far more advanced than the NX-01.

[Captain Seafort]

But in ST:IV we see Kirk's BOP engage warp drive while still in Earth's atmosphere. Granted, that was a ship far more advanced than the NX-01.

In the upper atmosphere heading out. We got a little sidetracked on the relatavistic/not relatavistic issue, but the basic questio remains why were Stukas able to intercept the NX-01. She obviously wasn't using full power, so I believe the hypothesis that she was using antigravs is viable.

[Sionnach Glic]

Not trying to drag this off topic or anything, but where was the speed of the impulse engines stated?