Jacorn Weapons debate

[Reliant121]

So superdensity AM/M containers? that could work thinking about it...

[Tsukiyumi]

You use something that's very, very dense.

So, they're full of Chakats. Gotcha.

[Coalition]

well if you read the quoted sentence you'd see I said that the individual molecules, ie. the atoms making up a single molecule, are held to gether by the em force, namely magnetisim as in all but metallic the transfer of electrons from one to another give one a positive charge and the other a negitive which then cause the attraction, this is coupled by attraction of all electrons to all protons. However, my ankle isn't made of one molecule...molecule one, two , three, four and up are held together by gravity.

Go back to your high school biology and chemistry. Molecules are held together by the bonds, which is EM. The closest gravity might have in holding atoms together is a glass of water, where gravity keeps the water from floating out.

Not to mention the fun part is that technically, your entire body is one molecule. Think about it.

As to EM wepons, since you won't believe the fact that phasers are EM wepons...phasers are stronger than lasers accroding to trek cannon. lasers are EM wepons, no and's if's or but's about it, so once again we can see that the Federation, nor any othe power is capable of creating an EM wepon as strong as what your talking about.

Phasers have more flexibility than lasers, a wider frequency range, and are dependent on the target material to avoid destroying themselves (a laser would have less flexibility, lower frequency ranges, and the target material might take longer to heat up/cut through). Phasers have worked via chain reactions when they were in use. EM weapons would have side effects (in hand weaponry, an EM weapon vaporizing someone would leave a large cloud of steam), and would likely draw more power ("Disaster" - Ro dumped the power from the ship's phaser array into a bridge terminal, and it did not explode).

To give you an idea, they used a 3% burst for a C-section ("Galaxy's Child"). A fluctuation of 60 TW ("A Matter of Time") would have been lethal.

The key here is to make a generator that can create an EM field. We do it today with electromagnets, and one person built an EM (for nuclear magentic resonance imaging) that had a draw of 30 Watts, and output over 1000 Gauss (here), or about 1/10 Tesla. Given that Ent-D's phasers can have over a MegaWatt of power, that is about 3000 Tesla, or about the strongest magnetic field ever created on earth (with explosives). It will have shorter range (since it is a field effect rather than a beam or missile), but it will be useful as a counter-missile system (activate the field to make enemy torps detonate). Of course, they will need to shield their own antimatter stores and computer cores, but I am assuming the engineers are smart enough to do this.

As I said in the orrigional post the gravimetric torpedo has a total damage rating of 21 Isotons.

So the specialized weapon is about as strong as a photon torpedo. It'd be very useful to make an enemy drop out of warp, but after that you'd better have something that can kill them, or they will return the favor by slamming anything magnetic (computer cores, antimatter storage). I am assuming both sides have similar technology capability (power generation, structural strength, warp field durability, etc).

Of course now we get into the fun of what size torpedo would be needed to generate such a blast. You could try the Hirogen relay system, which had ten-centimeter singularities that put out 4 TW, though the extra equipment needed to maintain the singularity might be bigger (and no guarantee that the equipment scales down proportionally - you could have the case where halving the power output only reduces the shielding and equipment by 5%).

Good commerce raider weapon though. Wait for a freighter by itself to go by, pop its warp bubble, then capture/destroy the ship. That is where I could see a weapon like this performing well, since the target can't shoot back. In addition, the resources needed to refit the freighters to handle the gravity attack would be a drain as well. Since you are attacking the enemy's supply line, that will definitely hurt them in the long run.



Can the Federation actually get superdense antimatter? Check the TM and similar books for how they store antimatter for long-range trips. IIRC, they mainly store antimatter as slush deuterium. Powdered antilithium would be much easier to store than antihydrogen/antideuterium.

Not to mention we can see the results. 50 tons (25 each of matter and antimatter) would be a warhead of about 1 Teraton yield. Has anything with that yield ever been seen before (like when they had to destroy an asteroid in "Pegasus" and it would take their entire torpedo stockpile)?

[Lt. Staplic]

dude, maybe you should take your own advice and check your basic chem facts...moleclues aren't held together by bonds...atoms are held together by bonds to form molecules.

If my body was one big molecule, how is it that I have several different compounds withing me?

Phasers work by using nadion particles focused through fushigi-no-umi crystals. They can be rigged into arrays which looks like a chain reaction of fire along the ship...I don't see how something can be powered by a chain reaction though...the term itself means that a single event occurs causing another, which causes another, which causes another, it's not a power source.

As to the torpedo yes, they are comperable in stregnth to a photon torpedo, but the Federation, nor any other Trek power has the ability to cause the distruction to their ship that their outlining...

and OOU, I made the Oly-euron and graviton wepons weaker to Federation Phasers, and torpedoes on purpose.


PS. Mikey, could you or one of the other mods take this debate and split it off this thread...call it the Jacorn Wepon Debate or something.
Thanks

[Tsukiyumi]

PS. Mikey, could you or one of the other mods take this debate and split it off this thread...call it the Jacorn Wepon Debate or something.
Thanks

Done.

[Lt. Staplic]

thanks

[Coalition]

dude, maybe you should take your own advice and check your basic chem facts...moleclues aren't held together by bonds...atoms are held together by bonds to form molecules.

Then do some research and post a link to a page that says molecules are held together via gravity, instead of EM. Heck, just find a page that says gravity is responsible for more than half of the force that keeps molecules together.

As far as what holds molecules together, try DNA or RNA. The base pairs are a separate molecule, and the spiral chain segments are molecules. However, when DNA is formed, the base pairs and the spiral chain are linked together with chemical bonds. Even better, try a steel I-beam. The entire beam, due to the electrons passing back and forth between the atoms, could be considered a single molecule.

If my body was one big molecule, how is it that I have several different compounds withing me?

How many of those compounds are load-bearing? Each bone is technically a single molecule. Those bones are attached to ligaments, with chemical bonds. Those ligaments are attached to other bones or muscles, with chemical bonds. Those muscles can be attached to your skin, with chemical bonds. Your muscles are attached to your nerves, with chemical bonds. From there, you get to your brain, where the nerve cells are partially separated, but the molecules that travel between tham are not moved via gravity.

Phasers work by using nadion particles focused through fushigi-no-umi crystals. They can be rigged into arrays which looks like a chain reaction of fire along the ship...I don't see how something can be powered by a chain reaction though...the term itself means that a single event occurs causing another, which causes another, which causes another, it's not a power source.

Watch the effects from hand phasers. A person (of varying size) can be disintegrated, without leaving a large cloud of steam behind ("The Vengeance Factor"). Phaser shots fired at a rock wall cause it to explode a fraction of a second after the shots hit (and after the beam stops hitting the wall), and the rocks aren't glowing from the heat involved ("Insurrection") (actually very useful, as it lets you move much faster compared to making a hole, then waiting for it to cool afterwards). Phasers, when disrupted, have almost no effect on the environment ("Ensigns of Command"). Compare that to a weapons grade EM weapon, which would heat up the air in front of the person.

Phasers have effects based on the materials composition of the target. Against people, they can stun, with little to no side effect (EM does not have this ability as a beam weapon, or butt-stroking the target). Against rocks, they can heat them up or cause them to shatter (EM could only cause heating up). When disrupted by low-intensity radiation phasers cause almost no problems to the environment (an EM weapon would cause a massive heat bloom directly in front of the shooter, causing problems). Phasers do not behave like EM weaponry, which in several cases is actually a good thing.

As to the torpedo yes, they are comperable in stregnth to a photon torpedo, but the Federation, nor any other Trek power has the ability to cause the distruction to their ship that their outlining...

and OOU, I made the Oly-euron and graviton wepons weaker to Federation Phasers, and torpedoes on purpose.

I'd use the gravity based weapon as a Commerce Raider/chase weapon. Against freighters (with lower-quality warp fields) it will be much easier to bring the ship out of warp, where it can be attacked/looted freely. As a chase weapon, it can be used to slow down the other ship, allowing the firing ship to set the range (either catching up, or getting rid of pursuit).

In tactical combat, the gravity weapon is used to interfere with enemy subspace fields, making them clumsier in combat. "Pegasus" had a case where the gravitational and magnetic fields of an asteroid were a hazard. The asteroid was not spherical (more of a very rough oval type), so we know the gravity cannot be high.

Even more fun, is using the gravity warhead to temporarily blind Federation sensors. "Hero Worship" had a case where gravity forces would affect sensors. "Relics" had a case where the Dyson sphere's gravity was so high it blinded Federation gravitic sensors (they literally could not detect the Dyson Sphere until they dropped out of warp at close range, due to the amount of gravity its mass had. I'll let others realize why this is stupid).

So instead of an offensive weapon, it is designed so that in FTL combat it can control the range, while in STL combat it makes the enemy ship clumsier and gives trouble detecting things (and if you can't detect it, you can't target it). It is strong enough to affect sensors, but not enough to affect weaponry (like trying to shoot a target that has heat ripples in front of it - if you hit, it'll be amazing).

[Lt. Staplic]

Then do some research and post a link to a page that says molecules are held together via gravity, instead of EM. Heck, just find a page that says gravity is responsible for more than half of the force that keeps molecules together.

you show me a site that says my body is one big molecule.

As far as what holds molecules together, try DNA or RNA. The base pairs are a separate molecule, and the spiral chain segments are molecules. However, when DNA is formed, the base pairs and the spiral chain are linked together with chemical bonds. Even better, try a steel I-beam. The entire beam, due to the electrons passing back and forth between the atoms, could be considered a single molecule.

yes each base pair is a molecule, however just because they are bonded doesn't mean the two molecues become one, and it's a hydrogen bond/phosporus bond that unites any two molecules, not the same thing as a chemical bond that creates molecules.

How many of those compounds are load-bearing? Each bone is technically a single molecule. Those bones are attached to ligaments, with chemical bonds. Those ligaments are attached to other bones or muscles, with chemical bonds. Those muscles can be attached to your skin, with chemical bonds. Your muscles are attached to your nerves, with chemical bonds. From there, you get to your brain, where the nerve cells are partially separated, but the molecules that travel between tham are not moved via gravity.

what about the circulatory/respitory system, how do they get linked in there, or is diffusion a chemical bond now too?
just because the ligaments and tendons are attacked doesn't mean their chemically bonded to the bone.

Hydrogen is an element, an atom, it chemically bonds with Oxygen, another atom, in a 2-to 1 ratio to give us H2O a molecule of water, even though water is a polerized molecule and has elecrical attractions to every other molecule of H2O around it, a lake is not a single molecule of water.

Watch the effects from hand phasers. A person (of varying size) can be disintegrated, without leaving a large cloud of steam behind ("The Vengeance Factor"). Phaser shots fired at a rock wall cause it to explode a fraction of a second after the shots hit (and after the beam stops hitting the wall), and the rocks aren't glowing from the heat involved ("Insurrection") (actually very useful, as it lets you move much faster compared to making a hole, then waiting for it to cool afterwards). Phasers, when disrupted, have almost no effect on the environment ("Ensigns of Command"). Compare that to a weapons grade EM weapon, which would heat up the air in front of the person.

Phasers have effects based on the materials composition of the target. Against people, they can stun, with little to no side effect (EM does not have this ability as a beam weapon, or butt-stroking the target). Against rocks, they can heat them up or cause them to shatter (EM could only cause heating up). When disrupted by low-intensity radiation phasers cause almost no problems to the environment (an EM weapon would cause a massive heat bloom directly in front of the shooter, causing problems). Phasers do not behave like EM weaponry, which in several cases is actually a good thing.

lasers have a wide variety of use other than heat...infact lasers were recently used to discover a new state of matter that occurs millionths of a degree above absolute zero, they cooled the substance down.

on top of this your still ignoring my orrigional question of how the Federation is suppossed to power this all powerful EM wepon that can obliderate fleets you keep talking about.
They use phasers instead of lasers because it's not possable for them to create EM wepons of the stregnth they can get phasers.

I'd use the gravity based weapon as a Commerce Raider/chase weapon. Against freighters (with lower-quality warp fields) it will be much easier to bring the ship out of warp, where it can be attacked/looted freely. As a chase weapon, it can be used to slow down the other ship, allowing the firing ship to set the range (either catching up, or getting rid of pursuit).

that's great, you do that, in your own thread, with your own ships, and your own tech.

[Tsukiyumi]

...just because the ligaments and tendons are attached doesn't mean they're chemically bonded to the bone...

Yeah, tell me about it.

[Lt. Staplic]

seriously, if they were, you'd still be able to walk!

[Coalition]

you show me a site that says my body is one big molecule.

You have been claiming that your ankle and the atoms in a steel beam are held together via gravity:
"2. I think your misinterpreting the use of the electromagnetic force...while it is much stronger, it's not what holds the steel beams and my ankle together. the EM force is basically light. Gravity would be a better candidate for what holds all that stuff together as each atom would exert a gravitational effect on every other atom."

You said it again here:
"these molecules then are held together in my ankle because of gravity, i.e. the molecules attract eachother and they clump up forming the bone."

And here:
"the atoms may be held together by electromagnetic force, the the molecules are held together by gravity."

And here:
"However, my ankle isn't made of one molecule...molecule one, two , three, four and up are held together by gravity."

From the very beginning you have been claiming that gravity is what holds the molecules in your body together. Where did you get this idea that molecules in a living being are held together via gravity?

It is possible to go from the molecular bonds keeping your toe bones together, to the hair follicles in your scalp, purely by traveling along chemical bonds.

One of the few cases where gravity is used as part of the structure to hold something together, is the Iowa Battleship turrets. They simply rest in the turret well, so if the ship turns over, they will literally fall out. Of course, if the battleship is turned over far enough that happens, the turrets falling out will be among the least of the problems.

yes each base pair is a molecule, however just because they are bonded doesn't mean the two molecues become one, and it's a hydrogen bond/phosporus bond that unites any two molecules, not the same thing as a chemical bond that creates molecules.

How is a hydrogen/phosphorous bond not a chemical bond?

what about the circulatory/respitory system, how do they get linked in there, or is diffusion a chemical bond now too?
just because the ligaments and tendons are attacked doesn't mean their chemically bonded to the bone.

Then what attaches ligaments and tendons to the bone? Gravity? Or chemical bonds between the atoms and molecules in the ligaments and tendons, to the atoms and molecules in the bone?

As to what connects the organs of your body together, it is 'creatively' called connective tissue.

Circulatory and repiratory are attached via nerves as well. Unless you are suggesting again that individual atoms and molecules have enough gravitational attraction to stay together (they don't) compared to an entire planet. Best example is when you exercise - hold a five pound weight in your hand, with your arm outstretched. The five pound weight is being pulled 'down' by a planet masing ~6*10^21 tons, and your arm is being held up by the bone, which is being held by a tendon massing a few ounces, which is attached to your shoulder muscle. So your tendon massing a few ounces is defeating a planet massing ~6*10^21 tons. How is it possible for the gravitational attraction of that tendon to be greater than the gravitational attraction of an entire planet?

lasers have a wide variety of use other than heat...infact lasers were recently used to discover a new state of matter that occurs millionths of a degree above absolute zero, they cooled the substance down.

In specific laboratory conditions, featuring low-power lasers, mainly featuring lasers pointed at atoms that are headed towards them (from here). We have both been talking about what has been seen for weaponized versions of phasers and lasers. Current weaponized lasers are mainly used for guidance, but increasing the power input (and extra cooling elements so it doesn't melt) would allow space based lasers to damage ships.

on top of this your still ignoring my orrigional question of how the Federation is suppossed to power this all powerful EM wepon that can obliderate fleets you keep talking about.
They use phasers instead of lasers because it's not possable for them to create EM wepons of the stregnth they can get phasers.

So they cannot create EM weapons of the strength required, but gravitic weapons which require several orders of magnitude more mass to simulate can be created?

Phasers have been observed to use chain reaction effects (like hitting a person with a phaser to disintegrate them, and even after the beam is off the effect keeps marching through their body). The chain reaction effect allows phasers to have effects greater than the energy put into them. It also allows the weapon to have its effects changed, allowing it to serve far more functions than a pure weaponized laser. I.e. drilling into a planet's crust. A phaser exploits the fracture points in rock to drill, while a weaponized laser would start melting and needing to either dig a channel, or vaporize the rock. At the same time, the heat from the beam is going to cause 'interesting' weather effects.

As to powering them, I already pointed out that 1 MW (less than a small phaser bank) would be enough to serve as a very effective anti torpedo defense.

[Lt. Staplic]

From the very beginning you have been claiming that gravity is what holds the molecules in your body together. Where did you get this idea that molecules in a living being are held together via gravity?

oh I don't know, maybe from reality...

why should the water molecules in my body be any different from the earth's water molecules, on earth their held together via gravity, stands to reason that there's no supernatural effect that allows water molecules to chemically bond into another compound in my body.

How is a hydrogen/phosphorous bond not a chemical bond?

a chemical bond involves the charging of one atom and opposite charging of another, yielding a chemical bond, which creates a new substance.

hydrogen/phosphorus molecules are polorized meaning the placement of the atoms/electrons within them are skewed to one side leaving a + and - pole, the nulcleotides are also polerized and that's what keeps them together, there is no exchanging of electrons, and no new substance formed, hence it's not a chemical bond.

Then what attaches ligaments and tendons to the bone? Gravity?

no, in this case it's a material connection...kind of like gluing two pieces of paper together.

In specific laboratory conditions, featuring low-power lasers, mainly featuring lasers pointed at atoms that are headed towards them (from here). We have both been talking about what has been seen for weaponized versions of phasers and lasers. Current weaponized lasers are mainly used for guidance, but increasing the power input (and extra cooling elements so it doesn't melt) would allow space based lasers to damage ships.

actually they were rather high powered lasers used to supercool the elements into Bose-Einstein Condensates...and weponized lasers have been developed in the US for anti-missle defence...however their effects don't cause the enemy nation to blow up when used like you keep suggesting is possable.

So they cannot create EM weapons of the strength required, but gravitic weapons which require several orders of magnitude more mass to simulate can be created?

and once again you miss the point of how the gravimetric wepon is used, graviton interfearence can be used with only a few gravitons, I don't need huge amounts of power

[Mikey]

But since gravity (in RL) is at best nominal unless you're discussing planet-sized masses or greater, how do you create significant effects with "a few" gravitons?

[Lt. Staplic]

because of the properties of wave interfearence. admitantly it will take a few hundred to get the desired effects, but still no where near the power-out put coalition is trying to place it at.

and the effects don't have to be planetary, just enough to cause micro re-warping of the warp field.

[Mikey]

because of the properties of wave interfearence.

Interference only effects as much amplitude of the target wave as is carried by the interfering wave.