oh man

Post by **Mikey** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:58 am

You're absolutely correct - that's what sets apart DS9. But to introduce a morally ambiguous (at best) element as a concrete and "official" part of Starfleet, and therefore of the Federation, seems to go against the concept of the Federation, as an idealistic fictional milieu, itself. Aside from Section 31, the "shades of grey" we discuss are character studies, individual conflicts, and dramatic advancement.

SolkaTruesilver · Post by **SolkaTruesilver** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:16 am

Exactly. Set aside for one second Section 31, and try to appreciate what was that great about the serie..

At, after all, it is the serie that had the greatest fan base on this website. Pool proved it!

Post by **Mikey** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:01 pm

What was great about the series was that ambiguity, conflict, and duality IN THE CHARACTERS, not in the idea of the Federation.

Monroe · Post by **Monroe** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:42 pm

I haven't seen all of DS9 yet (going to rewatch TNG first) but its on the netflicks list. From what I've seen though I like the idea of the Federation's morality beginning to crack. The New Republic in Star Wars suffered the same fate when it was being wiped out and threatened with a galactic genocide. Their high morality took a back seat as they began to trade Jedi in for worlds and looking for Super Weapons to use against the Yuuzhan Vong. Both cases show a very realistic side of self preservation. You don't win a close war without threatening some core beliefs. I can't think of any war in history that was close and bloody that some rights were lost.

There's also the problem of ratings, no one wants to see countless shows of going to a strange planet with an all powerful being that puts the crew through some kind of weird test and have the exact same ending. If you look at any TV show out there now like Rome, Deadwood, 24, the later Treks, they all have something in common. They all have story arcs as opposed to the older shows that began and ended status quo. You have changes in characters and that's what people want to see. They don't want to see never changing characters that's boring. They want to have the possibility of the good guys losing to build suspense. Companies want to have the people feel like they can't miss an episode to keep them coming back for more.

Its my opinion that the Dominion War kept with the current trend of TV shows to keep a story arc going and also to, as so many of you have pointed out, show the flip side to the positive parts of the Federation.

I personally think the show would have gone off the air if not for the Dominion War. It was waay too static and I'm sure someone lost their job for that. Plays you can keep in one area but not movies and TV shows. Its like breaking a basic rule of the entertainment industry.

Post by **Mikey** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:17 pm

I'm not saying I ldislike seeing moral characters being forced to choose the lesser of two evils, or doing things for the greater good which cause them to sacrifice some bit of their conscience - I agree that it adds to the development of the franchise, and makes the show a little more accessible. I'm just saying that I personally don't like the idea that the entity of the Federation itself had already begun that sacrifice, eons before the war even began.

Captain Peabody · Post by **Captain Peabody** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:32 pm

I thought the idea of Section 31 was that it was mainly a vigilante sort of group that operated outside of the Federation heirarchy...that it was mainly just individual Starfleet officials that supported it, and not the 'establishment' itself. So really, in mind, Section 31's existence has far more to do with the Insane Admiral Syndrome (which TOS and TNG had much more of, by the way) than the moral complicity of the Federation.

Post by **Mikey** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:40 pm

If that's the case, then it fits well with the DS9 mindset. I had always presumed that the existence of Section 31 went deeper than that, though - especially with the subsequent evidence from Enterprise.

SolkaTruesilver · Post by **SolkaTruesilver** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:40 pm

On the other hands, even after the Federation has it's morality somewhat compromised, sometime it really stood for it's principles.

For example, when Ross standed against the Romulan to stop them having the plasma torpedoes launchers on one of Bajor's moon. Even if it would have jeopardized the alliance, he decided to make the right stand.

Post by **Teaos** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:00 am

Yeah but that was also for self preservation not just because it was right.

SolkaTruesilver · Post by **SolkaTruesilver** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 5:21 pm

On the opposite. Self-Preservation would have had accepted the Romulan's actions, which mean loosing a (quite) weak ally in favor of supporting a (quite) critical one.

Which means Ross would have taken into himself to stop the alliance in favor of supporting the Bajorans over the Romulans. He wanted to keep up the engagement the Federation had to the Bajorans.

Enkidu · Post by **Enkidu** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:20 pm

Rochey wrote: A question for members in the UK or Ireland, do any of you know if they are re-runing the series on any channel? I've looked but am unable to find it anywhere.

Well the BBC 2 Friday late night double bill TOS repeats have ended, and they jumped straight into TNG early season 3. (They had some earlier TNG repeats on BBC 2 week day mornings earlier this year, I caught a couple of them)
Maybe they will get around to DS9 when they run out of TNG. I hope so, I missed a few seasons of DS9 when I went to Uni during the original airings. At this rate will take a year or so, however.

D. Sergez · Post by **D. Sergez** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:59 am

Alright. Deep Space Nine Started like TNG Peaceful excetera. and Showed that No Matter How Kind you Are Someone will not like you for that...

And That War is Horrible.. The Constant Reminders of The Personall Loss in the Show... just look at 'In the Pale Moonlight' Sisko tired of putting up the Weekly Death Report,

Post by **Mikey** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:17 pm

I'm not sure I understand your point. Of course war is horrible; nobody here suggested that DS9 glorified war; just that the show portrayed it, in the dark and uncomfortable way it required. However, no matter how dark the times and how necessary an evil Section 31 is, it still galls me a little to see the Federation subvert its principles to what they deem a necessity.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 9:00 pm

Indeed. S31 one is a nessesity, and I have no other problems with such organisations in other sci-fi. However, S31 went completely against what the Federation stood for. They are the exact oposite of everything Starflleet strives (however naively) for through out every series.
It just felt really out of place to me.

Post by **Teaos** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 2:37 am

I give credit to them for putting in section 31. While it may go against everything the show stood for they got the job done when no one else could.